sloan24
Contributor
God's love is just waiting to turn your tears to roses
Posts: 11
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Post by sloan24 on Dec 30, 2008 14:47:50 GMT -6
Hello, all. I am new to this site, but I joined because I desperately need fencers to participate in a survey for school... I am in engineering and It's for a school assignment and my grade pretty much depends on the number of people who answer these..... Your answers would be greatly appreciated, because I really don't' want to fail!!!!!! 1. Where have the worst injuries you have sustained in your fencing career occurred? Upper Extremity I. Shoulder II. Upper arm III. Elbow IV. Forearm V. Wrist/hand/finger Lower Extremity I. Hip II. Thigh III. Knee IV. Lower leg V. Foot/toe VI. Ankle . Head . Spine/trunk 2. What is the severity of your worst injury? (1) Minor cut/bruise (2) Major cut (3) Sprain/Strain (4) Broken Bone 3. Have you ever fought with or handled a rapier? (yes or no) 4. If you have some experience with rapiers, what do you think of rapier hilts compared to fencing bell guards? 5. Do you ever feel as if a longer bell guard would help lower the number of injuries to the hand and wrist?
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Post by vraptor on Dec 30, 2008 15:52:04 GMT -6
1a. Shoulder 1b. thigh 2. Strain 3.Yes 4. Effective (see below) 5. No
Normally, sparring with a rapier involves two weapons, the dagger (my choice), a buckler, a cloak, or a beer mug. The off hand parries the incoming blade. I have several rapiers and I assume that they hilt style you're talking about is what is commonly known as "swept hilt" I also have a rapier that has a small solid clamshell guard and I use that the most since it has a blunt blade.
However, when rehearsing staged combat with a partner, I do occasionally use the sharp with the swept hilt and I have gotten a glove nick or two through the guard. But please note that these were accidental as we weren't actually trying to hit one another with a pointed weapon.
Parries with a rapier are relatively uncommon because the weapon is much heavier than the guard weapon and as such, is slower to bring into play. The dagger/buckler/etc. is much lighter, and therefore quicker in defense. The rapier is primarily an offensive tool and in most cases, it is presumed that the defensive weapon has already dealt with the attacking blade. However, it is possible that a thrusting blade could go through the ribs of a swept hilt and injure the hand.
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sloan24
Contributor
God's love is just waiting to turn your tears to roses
Posts: 11
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Post by sloan24 on Dec 30, 2008 17:35:54 GMT -6
Thanks Vraptor! I appreciate your participation! If you wouldn't mind, please refer your friends who fence to this survey! Thank you!
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Post by fox on Dec 30, 2008 19:18:11 GMT -6
Upper extremity 1.) Wrist, sprain, as a teen I attacked recklessly, tripped and caught myself poorly, spraining my wrist.
Lower Extremity 2.) Thigh (actually I pulled a groin muscle once, this is the closest body part to that... hurt like hell)
I have only handled replica rapiers, rarely with sharp edges, a few with points.
The replica rapier I have handled generally had what are now called "swept hilts" which offer far less protection than a modern bell guard.
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Post by Aldo N on Dec 30, 2008 19:26:19 GMT -6
Not sure why this is "classical fencing," but here goes.
Upper extremity injuries, none, maybe the odd pinkie hit in dry sabre back in the day.
Lover extremity, easy, torn ACL, ouch!
Rapiers... no real antiques, some replicas like fox. I did play (fence with a friend) with one that was a cup hilt, rather like a modern epee guard, but centered. About the same protection.
Hope it helps.
Most wrist injuries I have seen did not come from an opponent's blade, so I will go with vraptor that a larger guard would not be a big safety factor.
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Post by schlager7 on Dec 30, 2008 19:52:50 GMT -6
sloan24, here are my answers:
1a.) an index finger - my opponent and I attacked simultaneously and extended our bell guards past each other's bell guard. When we pulled our arms back my index finger (what was it doing hanging out there like that?) got caught between the two. It hurt a bit and turned colors, but that is all.
1b.) Happily, none.
2.) Worst I have ever gotten from fencing is a bruise (it's those safe sports like tennis that cause injuries!!!)
3.) I own replicas and antiques (replica rapiers; antique small sword, colichemarde, & a pair of match main gauche) and have handled and fenced with others. I have fenced with replicas, never with the antiques, but have handled them (mine and antiques belonging to others).
4.) Depending on the time and place they come from... it depends. I've held a 15th century Italian rapier that had no more than a cross guard (much less safety for the weapon hand than a modern bell guard), some swept-hilts (still less), clam shell guards (close to that of a modern foil) all the way to early 19th century Spanish with cuphilt and long quillon (easily as much or more safety as a modern epee). Remember rapiers, of one type or another, cover almost 500 years. Remember, too a guard on a sport epee in 2008 is quite different from the guard on a sport epee from 1908 and that is one ONE hundred years.
5.) I'll go with the other who have posted before me. In modern competitive fencing (in MY experience, YMMV), most hand/wrist injuries are not caused by the blades, but by falls, etc...
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nemo
Blademaster
mobilis in mobili
Posts: 729
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Post by nemo on Dec 30, 2008 19:59:00 GMT -6
1a.) None other than the odd bruise. 1b.) Ankle (twisting it during a poorly executed retreat) 2.) Sprained ankle 3.) Uhm, no. I fence. 4.) see answer above 5.) I doubt it.
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Post by Evelyn S on Dec 30, 2008 20:23:33 GMT -6
1&2. UE: V. Wrist/hand/finger - As a junior epee fencer I developed tenosynovitis/trigger finger in my middle and ring fingers from overuse (I suspect overuse of the flick) using a Visconti pistol grip. Ultimately I had to take 6 months off from fencing completely, but after doing that and switching to Russian grips (which are smooth and don't press into my palm) I came back to >95%.
LE: III. Knee - In a NAC, my opponent hit me directly in the front of my knee, right on the tibial tuberosity. I don't believe it was fractured, but from the pain I experienced (much worse than the normal hard hits that occur with some frequency in epee) I suspect that it damaged the periosteum.
3&4. Never fought with rapiers.
5. I can only comment on modern Olympic fencing - the worst hand/wrist injuries I've seen were in sabre (thumb on weapon hand fractured in multiple places) and epee (non-weapon hand skewered by a broken blade). The size of the bell guard was not relevant IMO in either case.
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Jett
Maitre
On the back![ss:Default]
Posts: 112
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Post by Jett on Dec 30, 2008 21:51:10 GMT -6
1) Shoulder- Not sure what happened but I couldnt lift my arm past shoulder height, and I couldn't fully extend my arm
2) Knee-
3) 2
4) No
5) No
6) Not really. I tend to prefer smaller bell guards for foil and a standard size for epee
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Post by brynwulfr1 on Dec 30, 2008 22:24:23 GMT -6
1b.) upper arm Bruises received from strong attacks.
1b.) thigh From low attacks with power.
2.) major cut Incurred by an epee with pointe d'arret; missed the essential parry. (Actually, I was fencing bare-chested with masque -- an experiment I shan't forget.)
3.) yes
4.)both are effective
5.) no
My fencing experiences range from the classical Italo-Hungarian method to the Olympic style of fencing.
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Post by Voo Doo Doll on Dec 31, 2008 0:59:57 GMT -6
1. Lower Leg- Calve 2. Torn Muscle- Crutches & Boot For Months 3. No 4. NA 5. No
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Post by Prudence on Dec 31, 2008 7:46:52 GMT -6
1. Where have the worst injuries you have sustained in your fencing career occurred? - Lower Extremity (III. Knee)
2. What is the severity of your worst injury? (3) Sprain/Strain
3. Have you ever fought with or handled a rapier? (yes)
4. If you have some experience with rapiers, what do you think of rapier hilts compared to fencing bell guards? - They look nice, but I think bell guards serve their purpose for modern day sport fencing.
5. Do you ever feel as if a longer bell guard would help lower the number of injuries to the hand and wrist? - No, and as an Epeeist.. hand touches are the best.. don't make it more difficult.
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Post by freyja on Dec 31, 2008 10:39:23 GMT -6
Hi, good luck and Happy New Year.1 Upper arm[bruises], b thigh,I was participating in Sabre, and running towards my opponet and fell, it was pretty funny to see, like a beer sliding down on the bar towards someone, I was ok, just a bad bruise,2 Bruises 3 yes, friends at my club have taught me a rapier / dagger, more just for show. 4 effective 5 no
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supox
Contributor
Posts: 23
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Post by supox on Dec 31, 2008 10:41:36 GMT -6
1. Wrist 2. Strain (healed with ongoing tendinitis) 3. No, unfortunately 4. N/A 5. Definitely no. (in my opinion) Larger bell guards would increase the chance of bell guard - bell guard collisions in foil and sabre. Really nasty for the hand/wrist Good luck with your project
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Post by Fred Sklar on Dec 31, 2008 11:06:53 GMT -6
Fenced for about 10 years in 1950's and 1960's. Had a few scratches from the old epee sharp points before they went electric. Never had any physical injuries. The standard bells back then and what I see now seem adequate.
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Post by Curtis on Dec 31, 2008 12:58:27 GMT -6
1A Would be the chest and upper arm, catching a point from an epee and/or a whip hit from a foil. 1B Would be the thigh for the same causes.
2 Minor cut / bruise (Mind you I've sprained my ankles a number of times, but never from fencing.)
3 No
4 NA
5 Not really. My worst injuries always come from beginners slashing at the chest as opposed to the wrist and hand.
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Katman
Squire
[ss:Default]
Posts: 269
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Post by Katman on Dec 31, 2008 13:02:02 GMT -6
1. Where have the worst injuries you have sustained in your fencing career occurred?
My big toe on my right foot, which is my leading foot, was broken twice. I had a habit of leaving my front foot cocked up in the air with my heel planted on the ground. A fencer stepped down onto it and bent my toe backwards. After it happened a second time, I got rid of that habit. I can no longer bend that toe and it hurts in cold weather.
2. What is the severity of your worst injury?
I'm assuming it was a broken bone, though I never actually had a doctor look at it.
3. Have you ever fought with or handled a rapier? (yes or no)
No
4. If you have some experience with rapiers, what do you think of rapier hilts compared to fencing bell guards?
N/A
5. Do you ever feel as if a longer bell guard would help lower the number of injuries to the hand and wrist?
I fence foil and prefer smaller guards. When I fence epee I just use the standard guard. I haven't really experienced a problem with consistent injury to my hand or wrist, so I don't see where there's anything to help. No, I guess.
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Archren
Apprentice
Halt... Off target... En garde... Fence
Posts: 2
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Post by Archren on Jan 1, 2009 13:36:16 GMT -6
1a. Wrist - repetitive stress injury = chronic tendonitis. Actually led to my current inability to fence. 1b. Thigh - lots and lots of bruises. 2. As noted above, a repetitive strain injury to the wrist led to not fencing anymore. 3. No 4. N/A 5. From my POV, the bell guard was pretty irrelevant. YMMV.
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sloan24
Contributor
God's love is just waiting to turn your tears to roses
Posts: 11
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Post by sloan24 on Jan 2, 2009 15:05:46 GMT -6
Thank you all sooooo much! You don't know how much I appreciate this, and, if you would, keep referring additional fencers to the survey! I still need tons of replies!
Happy New Year to you all and God bless
and P.S. I've seen a couple of you use "YYMV"... what does that stand for?
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nemo
Blademaster
mobilis in mobili
Posts: 729
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Post by nemo on Jan 2, 2009 17:13:09 GMT -6
It's YMMV
Your Mileage May Vary
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Post by JEC on Jan 2, 2009 21:33:24 GMT -6
1. Where have the worst injuries you have sustained in your fencing career occurred? a) Shoulder. Got hit at base of deltoid muscle tendons unable to lift weapon arm above the shoulder for a year or so. b) Lower Extremity: twisted ankle while fencing on a 1-inch elevated strip at a NAC tournament, falling brusing knee cap and patellar tendon in a previously operated knee (due to non-fencing injury). The knee sprain felt much worse than the ankle. 2. What is the severity of your worst injury? Sprain/Strain. 3. Have you ever fought with or handled a rapier? Handled a rapier. 4. If you have some experience with rapiers, what do you think of rapier hilts compared to fencing bell guards? There were late Spanish rapiers with a hilt similar and as protective as the fencing bell guard. 5. Do you ever feel as if a longer bell guard would help lower the number of injuries to the hand and wrist? not significantly. I think that your questionnaire is flawed because it is not acquiring sufficient information about your fencers. Your responders include people who fence recreationally while other fencers are competitive. Injuries at different levels of olympic fencing would be different. Competitive fencers might also have issues with overtraining, or tendonitis at different regions, as compared to recreational fencers. Furthermore, historical fencers (with rapiers or other weapons) might be more prone to other types of accidents....
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sloan24
Contributor
God's love is just waiting to turn your tears to roses
Posts: 11
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Post by sloan24 on Jan 3, 2009 17:10:56 GMT -6
Nemo: Thanks to ALL fencers: my continued thanks!!! And please continue to refer others to the survey as I still need replies... God bless!
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Post by wedge on Jan 5, 2009 10:54:34 GMT -6
1A Upper Body/forearm.
1B Lower extr./ankle.
2 Severe tendonitis from 'flicking' with both foils and epees (the act of flicking, not being hit). Ankle sprain.
3 I also choreograph stage combat sequences and have done numerous rapier sequences.
4 Obviously a swept/cage hilt guard would not be appropriate to a pure thrusting competition weapon. An extended length bell for epee or foil might reduce a bit of 'whip-over' damage to the knuckles, but could eventually limit the ability to weild the weapon for in-fighting. The width of the guard is limited by the FIE rules, as are exteded quillions. I believe a modified sabre guard/knuckle bow could possibly provide more protection and remain within the rules, but it would be more desired if it could limit access to the wrist as a target, rather than protect the body from injury.
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Post by LongBlade on Jan 11, 2009 20:40:14 GMT -6
1. Where have the worst injuries you have sustained in your fencing career occurred? Upper Extremity I. Shoulder II. Upper arm III. Elbow IV. Forearm V. Wrist/hand/finger Lower Extremity I. Hip II. Thigh III. Knee IV. Lower leg V. Foot/toe VI. Ankle . Head . Spine/trunk 2. What is the severity of your worst injury? (1) Minor cut/bruise (2) Major cut (3) Sprain/Strain (4) Broken Bone 3. Have you ever fought with or handled a rapier? (yes or no) 4. If you have some experience with rapiers, what do you think of rapier hilts compared to fencing bell guards? 5. Do you ever feel as if a longer bell guard would help lower the number of injuries to the hand and wrist? 1. Worst Injury (upper)? V. Wrist/hand/finger - At the Fete de Lune a few years back. Had the index finger in my fencing hand bent backward and sideways touching my wrist behind my thumb. Pretty much ended my fencing for that year and some change. This had nothing to do with the design of the bell. My opponent and I went corps-a-corps and I tried to release the grip to protect a previously injured elbow and got caught up in it. Worst Injury (lower)? . Spine/trunk - In the late '70s. Oscar Barrera and I were fencing epee. He fleched and missed with the point, but slammed me in the ribs with his bell. Cracked 3 of my ribs. They still hurt in the winter time. 2. What is the severity of your worst injury? (3) Sprain/Strain - That backward finger thing was far and away the worst! All the other sprains, cuts, bruises, & cracked bones are nothing compared to that. 3. Have you ever fought with or handled a rapier? (Yes) I have handled a rapier, but all my injuries come from fencing with modern Olympic-style weapons. 4. If you have some experience with rapiers, what do you think of rapier hilts compared to fencing bell guards? (This is not a properly phrased question; the bell and the hilt are different parts of the weapon. The "hilt" is the handle or grip.) I'd much rather have an epee bell for protection. Rapier guards offer much less protection. Some were actually designed to catch or break an opponent's blade more than to protect the hand. 5. Do you ever feel as if a longer bell guard would help lower the number of injuries to the hand and wrist? "Longer" (Not wider)? As in if it were extended back toward the elbow? It'd probably reduce some of those. So would fencing in full body armor. However, the hand and wrist are target area in epee. That's just a part of the sport.
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sloan24
Contributor
God's love is just waiting to turn your tears to roses
Posts: 11
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Post by sloan24 on Jan 12, 2009 14:28:02 GMT -6
Please, everyone, I still need 35 more replies to my survey, so please get everyone you can to participate!!!
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