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Post by Labored Day on Sept 4, 2007 6:45:06 GMT -6
Compare this, if you will, with the geezer who could not accept being whipped by a 16 year's old girl and not only never admitted to anything, but after the bout was huffing and puffing and telling anyone who would listen and not how he was robbed by a sixteen year old and the judge + two side judges! What a looser! I saw and heard this loud display by the old rooster-while signing the DE sheet he was expressing to the director of the bout about being robbed, etc. He was not using his inside voice and it was without humor. At another tournament I saw a losing fencer express similar sentiments to the director, in a normal tone of voice, whereupon he was promptly black carded. Why the inconsistencies in directing? One or two of our younger directors on this forum most likely would have slapped him with a black card immediately. It was a poor display by a person (I won't use the word gentleman) who is old enough to know better.
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nemo
Blademaster
mobilis in mobili
Posts: 729
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Post by nemo on Sept 4, 2007 8:26:55 GMT -6
Hah! Hardly the first such rant of blame-everything-but-my-performance by that "geezer"... as distinct from this forum's own much-beloved geezer, who is frequently self deprecating to a fault.
(Not a fault shared by the "geezer" at Cougar Call to Arms... ever!)
He's a fine fencer. In this case he was opposite a younger, faster and much more nimble opponent. There would have been no shame in his loss, but for how he dealt with it.
While we are citing Jett for being a class act (rightly so), let me suggest the "geezer/old rooster" learn from many of our other veteran fencers who handle victory and loss with equal grace.
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Post by DavidSierra on Sept 4, 2007 10:43:43 GMT -6
Ahh, where to begin! I too attended the event this weekend. Kate wanted to fence an event to get her warmed up for the SSCC event at the end of the month, and we were then going to make a go of a holiday weekend in Galveston. I pitched in with refereeing a fair bit of the Mixed Sabre, to help move things along. Kudo's to the U of H kids for bringing off a fairly successful event that was WAY larger than it ever has been in the past. I think they'll learn from this and I don't think we'll see a lack of referees or grounded strips next season. But, I think in return for that one could expect online prepayment and a few other changes. All for the better, I would say. And the first large event of the season always takes awhile, with re-upping USFA memberships, and getting things entered correctly. The USFA is at (and has been for awhile!) a transition point where some things are handled well with respect to information technologies and other things are stuck in the 1970s. I think there are changes that will eventually be coming down the pipe that will help to solve some of these problems. Okay, now, let me respond to a couple of things Flamerge said, the first as a coach, and the second as a referee. Discussion of sportsmanship and gender and age issues. [snip] Naturally, the younger opponent has a greater mobility and variety of moves which are the result of dexterity and proper training, not brute force. In epee, as a spectator, I appreciate very much the toe/foot touches and the touches to the wrist ever so light and precise. As a father of a young fencer I don't appreciate very much the bruises and even the scratches under her 800 N FIE uniform caused by geezers who like to show their prowess in being still capable to stab a bull. [snip] Compare this, if you will, with the geezer who could not accept being whipped by a 16 year's old girl and not only never admitted to anything, but after the bout was huffing and puffing and telling anyone who would listen and not how he was robbed by a sixteen year old and the judge + two side judges! What a looser! I hope that this was only a manifestation of poor sportsmanship under the stress of competition, and I don't hold any grudge. But there is an issue when at open tournaments or in practice, "bigger and physically stronger" fencers are opposed to younger, smaller, and more mobile fencers who often prevail because of their mobility, flexibility, youth, and because they are better fencers. The older fencer has, or should have, more maturity and use his psychological advantage, his brain, against the younger fencer, not his body mass and his thrusting arm with the intent to score a hit by force and the result of hurting someone. If you win by brute force, you are not 10 years younger, 30 lbs lighter, have more hair and less gut, nor a fencing champion. This is a sport, an amateur sport at that. Your manhood, in this case, is not threatened, so take it easy and try to enjoy it. And if you really want to show how youthful you still are, then go for a foot touch and let see how you recover... So, a number of people asked Kate why she didn't fence the Mixed sabre event, and only fenced the Women's Sabre (which she won). Now, for those of you who don't know her, Kate is not a petite waif who will blow away in a strong breeze. She trains hard, with a regular weights and calisthenics program, and has made the commitment to become a serious athlete. She was #3 in the SSCC point standings last fall, and is a regular competitor at other regional events, and fences in NACs of her category. She has a strong frame, and excellent muscles. And she has a personality on strip that shrugs off psychological intimidation (we're still working on self-induced frustration though!). Her response to why she doesn't fence the mixed event is that she has nothing to prove by being able to take the punishment dished out by a out-of-shape old man, or a testosterone-poisoned teenage boy who's ego can't take losing to a woman. The few times she's fenced a serious mixed event, as soon as she started beating the guys, they responded by using brute strength and actions that verge on brutality. Its not worth the risk of injury to fence men who can't control their emotions and ego, like the above citation. When she does fence a mixed event now, it is rare, and only for specific purposes - a training session more than a competitive session. The reason I don't like Mixed events has less to do with "protecting fragile women who can't play with the boys" (as has been suggested by some nasty comments), and more to do with the fact that its more often the MEN who have problems in the event and the training value of the tournament is reduced for everyone. Until and unless they change the structure of National Tournaments, this is going to continue. Conduct of the referee, and side-judges. 2. What a referee is supposed to do I also have profound reservations on the judging in general at this tournament, how the referees interpreted what their duties were. I'm not a referee but I believe I'm right if I say that it is the referee who decides on a touch even when there are side judges to ASSIST him. If the referee is in doubt, he THEN asks the side judges and he still has the right to overrule the side judge. In this tournament, all referees decided to not even look at the feet and depend on the side judges for what THEY (the side judges) had seen, giving up in my opinion the prerogative of being the referee. Everyone makes a mistake and most are honest mistakes, but if the referee does not want to look at the entire picture, from head to toe, he should step down and ask someone else to do it in his place. This is why I do not referee nor would I ever, because in my honest opinion I don't know if I could see correctly what is going on and would have to rely upon others to tell me what THEY saw. But I expect from people who claim to be referees, who make a point in keeping and upgrading their own ratings, to act as such. This relying on the side judges was made by every referee I observed. In fact I also observed that they acted differently when on their own (generally speaking they were all fair) and when they were assisted by the side judges (I had many doubts about the collective judgement). Speaking as someone who has refereed at a high level at national tournaments in all three weapons - Epee is FAR from easy to referee. Refereeing a high level epee event (and lets make no bones about it, an A4 epee event in Texas? That is a high level epee event) without grounded strips requires a very different skill set than refereeing with them. And our referee training system reflects this. With grounded pistes, at a national level event, you are expected to make PERFECT calls. And I'm not talking about a mythical level of perfection that the sabre coaches expect that simply doesn't exist, I'm talking absolute, 100% perfection. It helps there is no ROW to get in the way, because in the absence of ROW, you better be absolutely certain about stopping the action for corps-a-corps and off the strip, hits OFF the piste, parring with the off weapon hand, delaying the bout, and an array of other things. The one thing that you're not having to pay attention to is weather the touch that hit the floor 2 centimeters on the other side of the fencers foot, hit it on the way down. That is what the grounded piste is for. And by-the-way, the focus of vision for an epee referee is NOT head to toe. Its waist down - this is what is taught, and what has been found to work best (and I don't mean that you ignore everything from the waist up, but your vision is not centered there). Even MORE so when there aren't any grounded pistes. If you disagree with that, please take it up with the Fencing Officials Commission. One of the grading criteria for developing epee referees is how well they follow with their eyes the waist down area. So, in an event like this? No grounded pistes? We're talking an incredible challenge! Heck, I know senior (and I'm talking FIE level) foil and (especially!) sabre referees who will admit to having enough problems with high level epee on grounded pistes. In this situation, you have to RELY on the side judges to help you see the floor. That is what they are there for. Please, don't assume you know how the referee is supposed to make the call and make judgments based upon what information you think he is supposed to use. A referee does not make his own call and then consult the side judges. He first consults them, and only if he has overwhelming evidence to support a different call does he over-rule them. It is a piece of information that he is supposed to take into account before issuing a call (kinda like the lights on the box). There are some training issues at hand, and one thing I'm going to work on with developing referees in light of some things I've seen is the instruction of side judges. Side judges have to be instructed properly on what to do. But, I've seen bad instructions given to side judges at the finals of a DivI NAC, as well, so its hardly a unique issue. The point is though, that what epee referees who aspire to work nationally are trained to do and graded on is different enough that an ungrounded piste requires some specific training for (including instruction and utilization of side judges). Actually, there a probably some referees who don't work nationally who are better at refereeing on ungrounded pistes than many who do. There are different skills involved. I've never thought about it before, but there are. We'll work to solve this issue. But its extraordinarily ... unhelpful ... to criticize people for following their training when you don't understand WHAT that training its and WHY it was developed.
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Post by Flamberge on Sept 5, 2007 0:28:49 GMT -6
What I had to say about the behavior on and off the strip of a certain "person" I did and I don't care to discuss it further, but the comments on the toe touches and the referees (cum side assessors) are interesting as well as the consideration of putting on an open mixed event where you might have the clash of a "mature" titan against a teenager. I asked the young fencer why she insisted on attempting so many toe touches when it was evident that the circumstances (referee and lack of grounded strip) made the task not very rewarding. Here is her explanation. "First of all this for me was just a practice tournament for the "real" tournaments I will go to both nationally and internationally next month. It gives me an opportunity to try my timing and check on my technique against people I don't normally fence. In terms of fencing moves and touches, I like to work on my toe touch, wrist touch and "passata sotto" which help me when fencing against a physically stronger, larger, and taller fencer than I am. In terms of tactics, if I see an opportunity wide open for my toe touch, I go for it since this is how I practice my timing and my precision as well. The foot is not a big target and there is always a risk going for it, but if you know what you do it can be rewarding and discombobulating for your adversary. When hit there, you always feel a bit like you've been had... it really bothers you, as we've seen! In terms of strategy, at a real tournament, I would have never continued or insisted with these touches since there my goal is to win, not to practice some technique. Keep in mind though that at real tournaments the strips are grounded, therefore you don't have the discussions (at least as many and as long) of is it or isn't it? Lastly, since so many calls were contested and so many touches were not given, I know I have to make my action crisper so that nobody fair can say he did not see or wasn't touched." On the issue of referees and their calls on toe touches on grounded strips or not
I am not a referee and I do not pretend to know the rules nor that if I knew them, my interpretation was the only correct one, 100% perfect, if you want to use the characterization of our "local" expert. All I do is apply some logic and common sense which anyone, rated referee or just peon, can do if he uses his brain. OK, here is the situation: tip of the epee on its way to the foot of the opponent, touches the grounded strip 1 cm in front of the foot, slides 1 cm forward and touches the foot in one continuous motion. Light goes on and touch is granted. Before JEC jumps up with HIS theory that this is not so because he confuses it with dragging the tip on the strip, here is a bit of the mechanics and physics of this action: 1. When the tip touches the grounded strip, even if the force is >750 g, it will not get a light, because the strip is grounded (just like touching the bell guard). 2. Between 1 and 2 milliseconds afterwards, after the tip slides forward 1 cm (at around a conservative 50 km/h), the tip hits the foot, and then all we peons see the light. No wonder that the touch is granted. For the doubting Thomases out there, if you think about it, you realize that there is no way any referee can parse the action described above as two separate actions as the time separation (1-2 milliseconds) is much less than what the human or superhuman eye could perceive. OK, now let's go to the non grounded strip we had at the Cougar. Repeat the same action. Assume that the side judges are awake and see that indeed the tip touched the floor first. The call will be (in this case was always) for floor touch, because this is what the side judge saw first (since we have already established that the referees present had decided to check, David Sierra's opinion notwithstanding, what the fencer above his/hers waistline was doing and relying on the side judges to tell him what had happened below the waistline of said fencers). Therefore, using this logical example, one may conclude that a large number of the called floor touches would/could have been legitimate foot touches if we had grounded strips, much to the chagrin of the "geezers" (plural) who were on the receiving end. This is, I believe, exactly what Davis admitted to the young fencer at the end of the bout for top 8, showing great honesty and sportsmanship. Would all judges agree with this reasoning? Well, probably not because the rules are (a) not perfectly clear and (b) cannot cover absolutely any possible occurrence, and therefore (c) they are left open to interpretation causing these and similar discussions. As soon as David Sierra will understand this nuance, he'll be a better referee, albeit more modest, a bit less pompous, and both he and all the others who think they know everything there is to know, will realize that they have yet a long way to go and that perfection is not of this world, not even in epee. For the reasons discussed above this is/was not a big deal. This was a friendly tournament in which almost everything was good. A bit of criticism and few comments from the gallery do not hurt anyone, do not diminish the respect and sincere gratitude for the dedication of all judges, competent or not, since I hope everybody wants to improve and learn, even those who think they know everything. On the mixed open events I agree with the reluctance expressed by David Sierra towards these events exactly for the reasons he presented. There is an inherent danger when in a contact sport you pair two masses which are substantially different. However, it would be not so dangerous if manners were required on the part of everyone. If a 13 year old would behave as a kid of his age and act out of control, the people in charge would require of him and his parents to make sure that he calms down lest he'll be kicked out, since his behavior could endanger him and others and is disruptive. Why not apply the same criteria to older, heavier fencers who are not under control of their older and hopefully more mature brain? Someone said that there are two different standards. I really don't know, but it is obvious that this rush of newly produced testosterone must be brought under control. Mixed open events are a very helpful training ground for the "elite" fencers both men and women. The issue is not winning, but practicing moves and competition management on the part of the elite fencer, obviously without physical danger caused by an out of control sparring partner. Sergey Golubitsky told me that one of the fundamental elements of the preparation for an elite fencer is to fence in tournaments, all kind of tournaments, as often as possible, every 2 or 3 weeks during the season. There is no fencing class, no training session, as effective as the trial by fire you get at "practice tournaments." And if he says so, I hope the "coaching" half of David Sierra will agree with him and me on this.
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Post by DavidSierra on Sept 5, 2007 8:09:44 GMT -6
Flamerge - you have the annoying habit of making all discussions personal. It seems at though you know of no other way to express an opinion. It often takes quite a bit of effort to parse out the personal references from the good thoughts expressed. The other thing you tend to do is to restate someone's statements, changed slightly, just enough to alter the meaning. Do yourself a favor, take out the personal references and changed meanings, and your thoughts will be much more warmly received. That being said, your thoughts are valid, even if they are expressed in a manner that belies courteous discourse. Would all judges agree with this reasoning? Well, probably not because the rules are (a) not perfectly clear and (b) cannot cover absolutely any possible occurrence, and therefore (c) they are left open to interpretation causing these and similar discussions. As soon as David Sierra will understand this nuance, he'll be a better referee, albeit more modest, a bit less pompous, and both he and all the others who think they know everything there is to know, will realize that they have yet a long way to go and that perfection is not of this world, not even in epee. For the reasons discussed above this is/was not a big deal. This was a friendly tournament in which almost everything was good. A bit of criticism and few comments from the gallery do not hurt anyone, do not diminish the respect and sincere gratitude for the dedication of all judges, competent or not, since I hope everybody wants to improve and learn, even those who think they know everything. On the subject of refereeing. As might be discerned from previous statements, I was advancing a learned perspective on why things happen the way they happen and the circumstances and environment in which they do. The kinds of toe touches you just described, yes they will register valid on a grounded strip, and more often than not, will be allowed. Pushing the point on the piste is indeed a different penalty - and one that is in the rulebook for a TOTALLY different reason, related to the materials used for constructing metal pistes and the underlay support (do you know why this is? I'll bet you don't and that the answer will surprise you). But if you're fencing on an ungrounded strip, you're not going to get that action (or at least not with an awake referee and side judges). Doesn't matter if it would have been valid on a grounded piste. If the referee (or side judge) sees an action register on the machine that arrived on the ground where it is not insulated, that action shall be disallowed (t.66). And I never said that the referee is supposed to ignore any part of a fencer (above or below the waistline). Again, a restatement that changes the meaning of what is said. I was attempting to educate you on the whys and hows of some of what referee training includes, in a (futile?) attempt to get you to understand what is going on and why. There are three important things that beginning epee referees are taught: 1) keep your focus below the waistline of the fencers during the action. 2) have the scoring box in your direct or peripheral vision at all times (did you know that is why the lights are green and red? because those are the two colors easiest to see out of peripheral vision!). 3) check with your side judges (if present) before you make any call. Now, this is not interpretation of training, nor is it "my" system. Its how referees are trained and graded, according to guidelines laid down by the FIE Arbitrage Committee and the USFA Fencing Officials Commission. I have nothing to do in the slightest with creating them. Take the referee training course, if for no other reason then to learn the hows and whys. Heck, I encourage EVERYONE to do so, even if you never referee a bout in a real competition. When you learn about the details and protocols, it gives you an edge over your opponents. On the mixed open events I agree with the reluctance expressed by David Sierra towards these events exactly for the reasons he presented. There is an inherent danger when in a contact sport you pair two masses which are substantially different. However, it would be not so dangerous if manners were required on the part of everyone. If a 13 year old would behave as a kid of his age and act out of control, the people in charge would require of him and his parents to make sure that he calms down lest he'll be kicked out, since his behavior could endanger him and others and is disruptive. Why not apply the same criteria to older, heavier fencers who are not under control of their older and hopefully more mature brain? Someone said that there are two different standards. I really don't know, but it is obvious that this rush of newly produced testosterone must be brought under control. Agreed. 100%. Totally. The blame here is threefold. 1) On the fencer for behaving like a cretin. 2) On the referee for not stopping him. 3) On the coach for allowing someone to behave in such a manner. I've had students injured seriously by an out of control fencer who was behaving like that and there is nothing that will get my temper aroused hotter. Mixed open events are a very helpful training ground for the "elite" fencers both men and women. The issue is not winning, but practicing moves and competition management on the part of the elite fencer, obviously without physical danger caused by an out of control sparring partner. Sergey Golubitsky told me that one of the fundamental elements of the preparation for an elite fencer is to fence in tournaments, all kind of tournaments, as often as possible, every 2 or 3 weeks during the season. There is no fencing class, no training session, as effective as the trial by fire you get at "practice tournaments." And if he says so, I hope the "coaching" half of David Sierra will agree with him and me on this. On the subject of coaching and what you said in the last two paragraphs there, I agree with the sentiment, if not the specifics. You will notice that I had a student at this competition, who was there for the purpose of practice? Regular, intensive practice against all levels of competition is extraordinarily important. Have you forgotten the SSCC and WHY I've spent so much time and energy building it up? Its to foster such opportunities. Now, I'm definitely a sabre specialist in coaching and more experienced evaluating that game, so I'm very comfortable saying: the game of sabre as practiced in Men's events and Women's events is very different. I know for a fact (because I've conversed with the coaches) that the elite Women's Sabre fencers in this country do not fence in Mixed events on a regular basis (training, yes, but not "training competitions"). But I'll also point out that the USA is one of the few places in the world where Mixed events are held regularly, and we're not exactly sweeping the floor with our opponents in Women's Epee and Foil, now are we? And the very best in this country, the one or two at the very top of the standings, I wonder how many Mixed events they have entered in the past couple of years? Food for thought. Sometimes, you can't help it. We're headed to the Adleman next weekend, and there is no Women's event. Kate is going to fence the mixed because she needs another warmup before the Houston SSCC and Tuscon NAC. Its not ideal, but there's not much else that can be done.
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Post by schlager7 on Sept 5, 2007 8:20:45 GMT -6
Speaking as a participant and someone pretty familiar with most of those mentioned or referred to in Flamberge's last installment, I wish to make the following remarks.
I understand fully the reasons the young fencer continued to attempt toe hits. Such are the personal decisions every fencer makes based on what is important to them. At her skill level, I'd likely do the same. Fencing is as much about testing yourself as anything else. As Flamberge might say, "Bravo!"
On the other hand, there were a few turns of phrase I found unfortunate, if not demeaning.
First, the Cougar Call to Arm is a "real" tournament. It offers no national or international points. That does not make it less real.
Second, JEC is an intelligent, learned and articulate individual. This also was not exactly his first time out as either fencer or referee or assesseur. The lead-in seemed quite dismissive of him and his "theory." I re-read his post. He makes no reference to "dragging the tip on the strip," only to either hitting an ungrounded strip or tearing through a grounded strip (less common now that the old copper mesh strips are being phased out by time and attrition). I found nothing inaccurate in his statement.
DavidSierra is already one of the better referees in our section. He works on both local tournaments and NACs, local qualifiers and nationals. He has worked hard to build up the referee cadre in our section. He is no more or less pompous than anyone else I have encountered in fencing, myself included. Indeed, he has even posted on this forum referring to moments that were not his finest.
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Post by phillipmj on Sept 5, 2007 11:44:23 GMT -6
At least it certainly *seemed* real. It had all the ingredients. . . fencers, referees, interminable lines for registration and equipment check, malfunctioning blades and body cords, yellow cards, red cards, bad footwork, bad timing, bad calls, bruised ribs, bruised egos. . . everything you need for a fun tournament. then again, i did so poorly, maybe it would've been better if it *hadn't* been real.
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kb
Squire
Posts: 261
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Post by kb on Sept 10, 2007 7:42:02 GMT -6
John has posted his photos from the CC2A on his site. They are under "Sports" and the competition photos start around number 100 and go through 215. He got some nice ones of Robert, Davis and a few others, plus his usual taskmasters-the ALL girls. www.t-bone-photos.smugmug.com
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Post by schlager7 on Sept 10, 2007 13:42:10 GMT -6
Cool pix!
I particularly like the ones shot from the level above. The markings on the gym floor give the fencers a "geometric" quality.
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Post by kd5mdk on Sept 18, 2007 7:34:24 GMT -6
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