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Post by scottbrown on Nov 17, 2011 14:19:27 GMT -6
Hi All, Could someone enlighten me as to how the USFA and/or the FIE manage situations where a competitor is injured to the point where they cannot continue please? I'm speaking specifically to formatting issues*. In particular, in regards to things like multiple injury drop-outs in a single pool that feeds a single-elimination final. Also, what if during a final match a fencer is incapacitated? Does the other fencer automatically win? Does the fencer with the most points at that time win? Does a substitute take his/her place? Thanks in advance. Scott *I'm aware that first-aid is probably a good initial idea!
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Post by Dan Gorman on Nov 20, 2011 20:59:07 GMT -6
If someone is injured to the point of being unable to continue in pools, that fencer is removed from the pool so your 7 person pool just became 6. No one's bout against that fencer is counted. in the event of an injury during a DE, the other fencer wins. It's rare enough that it's seldom an issue.
I suppose one could read your use of the word incapacitated and attribute the injury directly to the other fencer. In that event the fencer who intentionally so injured an opponent would be excluded from the tournament. Such barbarism has no place in our sport.
Dan
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Post by schlager7 on Nov 21, 2011 8:05:55 GMT -6
Also, if this helps, I am including a link to the USFA Penalty Chart. Some circumstances will not apply, obviously, but it may give you a good glimpse into how various problems are treated.
Yellow cards are simply a warning (you may only get one yellow card per bout). Red cards give a point to your opponent. Black cards result in the offender's expulsion (sometimes simply from the event, in more severe cases from the venue).
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Post by scottbrown on Nov 21, 2011 13:07:47 GMT -6
If someone is injured to the point of being unable to continue in pools, that fencer is removed from the pool so your 7 person pool just became 6. No one's bout against that fencer is counted. in the event of an injury during a DE, the other fencer wins. It's rare enough that it's seldom an issue. I suppose one could read your use of the word incapacitated and attribute the injury directly to the other fencer. In that event the fencer who intentionally so injured an opponent would be excluded from the tournament. Such barbarism has no place in our sport. Dan Thanks for the reply. So how do the judges (or ref?) decide if the injury was delivered intentionally? I'm assuming "DE" means double-elimination in your comment here. But I was under the impression that some formats are pools followed by single elimination until we have a winner. Say two people are fencing in the final match of a tournament and and injury occurred, how do they decide who wins? Three example scenarios: 1-Bob and Tom are tied at 5 2-Bob leads Tom 5-4 and Bob is the injured party 3-Bob leads Tom 5-4 and Tom is the injured party And just for the sake of being thorough, what would happen if both fencers were injured to the point of not being able to continue in the same exchange? Would the tournament have no winner? Would 3rd and 4th place become 1st and 2nd....etc, etc. Thanks again for the reply. Scott
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Post by scottbrown on Nov 21, 2011 13:09:03 GMT -6
Also, if this helps, I am including a link to the USFA Penalty Chart. Some circumstances will not apply, obviously, but it may give you a good glimpse into how various problems are treated. Yellow cards are simply a warning (you may only get one yellow card per bout). Red cards give a point to your opponent. Black cards result in the offender's expulsion (sometimes simply from the event, in more severe cases from the venue). Is this the link you meant to include by any chance: www.madisonfencing.com/documents/penalty.pdfScott
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Post by schlager7 on Nov 22, 2011 0:23:51 GMT -6
Close. Actually, this was the link: fencingofficials.org/documents/rules/Penalty%20Chart%20-%20Sept%202008.pdfSorry about that. As to Dan's post, DE = "Direct Elimination" a.k.a. single elimination. As you probably know, in a USFA event we typically break all of the fencers in a given event into pools of anywhere from 5-8 fencers. As an example, in October one club I belong to held a tournament. In the "E & Under" (the event was for lesser ranked fencers) Senior Mixed Foil we had two pools of fencers. Here is a link showing the results of the two pools. askfred.net/Results/roundResults.php?seq=1&event_id=67064[NOTE: V = number of victories; TS = total number of touches scored against all opponents in the pool combined; TR = total number of touches received from all opponents in the pool combined; Ind = "Indicators", that is, TS minus TR... used to break ties between fencers with an equal number of victories]. These are used to seed the Direct (Single) Elimination Round. Here is a link showing the DE results: askfred.net/Results/roundResults.php?event_id=67064&seq=2&highlight_competitor_id=It is my hope that by selecting a concrete example I (and other sport fencers on this forum) can more accurately answer your questions about how USFA organizes competitions.
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Post by schlager7 on Nov 22, 2011 0:52:27 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply. So how do the judges (or ref?) decide if the injury was delivered intentionally? Once we were directors. Now they say we are referees. (Personal Op: I think that entire thread speaks more to the USFA's innate insecurity in the face of other sports more than anything else.) How does the referee decide if the injury was deliberate or not? That is an excellent question. There are probably as many answers as there are referees or possible scenarios. The short answer is that the referee decides. The referee, in our world, may be challenged as to whether or not they have correctly applied a rule or not. OTOH, they may not be challenged on a statement of fact. Example: I issue a yellow card to a fencer for parrying with their off weapon hand. If there is a challenge, the challenge will prevail. The correct penalty is a red card. Example: I state that in a given action which began with offensive actions on both sides, both landing on valid target, that Fencer X was the first to initiate an attack (making Fencer Y's action a counter-attack). If that call is challenged, nothing will overturn it as I am stating that Fencer X made the attack. There is no rules application in play. If I, as a referee, feel an injury was the result of a non-fault accident of the bout, there is no penalty. Conversely, if I feel it was the result of "a touch made with brutality" [1st Group]; "a dangerous, violent or vindictive action" [2nd Group]; or "deliberate brutality" [4th Group] I may issue the appropriate penalty. As you can see, what you described might easily fit any one, two or all three possibilities. It is the referee who must make the call (and possibly explain their call to the bout committee and/or the FOC). The referee has considerable lattitude, but also must be able to defend their call if challenges progress up the ladder. Welcome to our world.
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Post by schlager7 on Nov 22, 2011 1:04:49 GMT -6
Say two people are fencing in the final match of a tournament and and injury occurred, how do they decide who wins? Three example scenarios: 1-Bob and Tom are tied at 5 2-Bob leads Tom 5-4 and Bob is the injured party 3-Bob leads Tom 5-4 and Tom is the injured party And just for the sake of being thorough, what would happen if both fencers were injured to the point of not being able to continue in the same exchange? Would the tournament have no winner? Would 3rd and 4th place become 1st and 2nd....etc, etc. Thanks again for the reply. Scott Nice. The simple answer is that if, in the final event, one fencer cannot continue and the final, winning point has not been reached, the fencer able to continue wins. Not satisfying, but there you are. I am not aware of an instance in which, during the final gold medal bout BOTH fencers would be rendered unable to continue. We generally allow for tied 3rd places. Some tournaments (notably qualifying competitions) fence off for third and give the loser 4th place. In that case... 3rd place wins? (Anyone?) In a 3rd place tie situation I would think there might be a fence-off (with the top 2 out of action) or simply try to award 1st based on relative indicators of the two third place fencers... (again, anyone?) I'll leave my part of this issue with an anecdote. A few years ago, in a sabre competition in New Orleans (yeah, that one) two fencers meeting in direct elimination were BOTH awarded black cards (don't ask). The computer running the tournament software (of the time) CRATERED because it did not know what to do with a DE bout in which NO FENCER advanced to the next round. I believe today such an event would simply give the fencer who was slated to meet the winner of that bout a "BYE."
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Post by bladesparks on Nov 22, 2011 8:21:46 GMT -6
Among the criticisms laid upon both sport fencing and SCA rapier fencing by many in the historical fencing world is that of the artificiality of their rules, many of which exist precisely to maintain a reasonably safe environment.
To Scott I say be prepared. As you create rules for safe conduct during competitions and for awarding points, many will consider this stepping away from "the martial spirit."
I am not trying to discourage you. I am just saying be prepared for criticism by purists.
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Post by joevisconti on Nov 22, 2011 13:23:01 GMT -6
There is a group in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area called Schola St. George. AFAIK they are into great sword fencing. I run into some of them from time to time and believe they sometimes hold some sort of tournament.
You might see if they have developed a system to deal with fencer elimination due to injury that is different from our USFA system.
I'm afraid I don't know more about them or their system, but I believe you can find them with a simple Google search.
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Post by LongBlade on Nov 24, 2011 3:46:06 GMT -6
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nemo
Blademaster
mobilis in mobili
Posts: 729
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Post by nemo on Nov 25, 2011 12:34:46 GMT -6
I thought the historical crowd held tournaments and competitions with score-keeping in fairly low repute... something about lacking that "true martial spirit" or some such.
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Post by seguin on Nov 25, 2011 12:37:24 GMT -6
I thought the historical crowd held tournaments and competitions with score-keeping in fairly low repute... something about lacking that "true martial spirit" or some such. Considering that the theme of this entire discussion thread would seem to refute that assumption, what was the point of posting it?
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