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Post by schlager7 on Jan 11, 2012 8:59:21 GMT -6
So I get my usual email from the USFA/USA Fencing and this little notice is part of it.
Club Reminder
All USA Fencing Clubs are required to have a minimum of 10 current USA Fencing Members to be a club in good standing.
I am familiar with the rule, but I was wondering if anyone could explain to me WHY this rule exists? It seems this inhibits clubs from joining the USA Fencing rather than encourage them to join.
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Post by joevisconti on Jan 11, 2012 9:27:19 GMT -6
Understandable if you forgot, but you put a similar question out to Fencing Net some years back (You inspired me to run a forum search there).
Your question then was how small a club could be. Granted this is a different question. That thread, however, may have contained one answer:
From USFA BoD minutes for September 29, 1999:
I don't know if anything more recent has changed things. I'd suspect it is still the USA Fencing's intent to actually get a minimum of $400.00 (Non-competitive memberships of $40.00 X 10) from each club + the cost of club membership.
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nemo
Blademaster
mobilis in mobili
Posts: 729
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Post by nemo on Jan 11, 2012 9:37:41 GMT -6
Mr. Micahnik noted that there may be a timing issue involved. All individual members of a club will have to become (USFA) members before the club can apply for membership. Linda Dunn noted that this will serve as an excellent incentive for clubs to do early membership drives. It was further noted that the appeal process included is intended to address such discrepancies. I don't know if anything more recent has changed things. I'd suspect it is still the USA Fencing's intent to actually get a minimum of $400.00 (Non-competitive memberships of $40.00 X 10) from each club + the cost of club membership. Now THAT sounds like the USFA we all know! PS to schlager7: Whatever gave you the idea the USFA/USA Fencing had any interest in increasing the number of clubs? They exist purely to generate international fencing medals for America. All other claims to "supporting" or "growing" fencing is just so much cant and blather.
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Post by Martin Gale on Jan 12, 2012 0:08:30 GMT -6
Interestingly this went out on today's email from the North Texas Division...
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Post by jazz007 on Jan 12, 2012 0:25:12 GMT -6
My understanding is that it was designed to prevent people form all fencing at the same club, and "competing" as different, basically nonexistent clubs, to corner/dominate team events and other club-restricted events (examples are not coming to mind). The $$ aspect is likely valid as well.
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Post by Aldo N on Jan 12, 2012 0:29:05 GMT -6
In Houston this may not be a very high bar. In SOME towns, it is hard enough to just have ten people as club members, forget being competitive enough to want to join the USFA.
Note, for a recreational fencer there is NO overwhelming reason to join the USFA, except now the clubs will have to require it.
This may actually tank some small clubs.
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Post by fox on Jan 12, 2012 0:40:35 GMT -6
God help me. I actually think nemo has it right!
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Post by LongBlade on Jan 12, 2012 0:57:01 GMT -6
Mr. Micahnik noted that there may be a timing issue involved. All individual members of a club will have to become (USFA) members before the club can apply for membership. Linda Dunn noted that this will serve as an excellent incentive for clubs to do early membership drives. It was further noted that the appeal process included is intended to address such discrepancies. I don't know if anything more recent has changed things. I'd suspect it is still the USA Fencing's intent to actually get a minimum of $400.00 (Non-competitive memberships of $40.00 X 10) from each club + the cost of club membership. Now THAT sounds like the USFA we all know! PS to schlager7: Whatever gave you the idea the USFA/USA Fencing had any interest in increasing the number of clubs? They exist purely to generate international fencing medals for America. All other claims to "supporting" or "growing" fencing is just so much cant and blather. I find myself in the EXTREMELY uncomfortable position of agreeing with Nemo about anything. It hurts but, I think he's right. Now, I think I'll go throw up.
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nemo
Blademaster
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Posts: 729
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Post by nemo on Jan 12, 2012 9:41:19 GMT -6
I love you, too...
The thing I always hated about fencing and fencers was the fairy tale that it was all about "growing fencing."
The USFA (or USAF or whatever) is about gaining prestige for America on the international fencing stage. To that end if you are an elite fencer, it really is all about you. I was there, briefly. It was exciting.
If you are not a part of that clique, you pretty much exist to fund them, but if it makes you feel better, have a magazine (four times per year, possibly on time).
When I stopped fencing I got a lot of requests from the old club to keep coming by. It was suggested I'd enjoy still having a place to fence once or twice a week. Of course, that would be a bit later in the night when the paying classes ended. So all it would cost is a few hundred a month to my old club to suit up, fence a tiny bit, and be largely ignored. Now I can also shell out $40-60 per year on top of that.
Thanks, but no thanks. It's hard enough to keep fencing after college. If I want fun and a workout after the day job, I can join a gym or take up any of the sports that are way cheaper and more widely accepted.
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Post by joevisconti on Jan 12, 2012 9:49:53 GMT -6
I'm in Dallas and I know most of the rest on this board are in the metroplex, or Houston or Austin or San Antonio.
Getting ten members of your local fencing club to join the USFA is not that hard when you have 40+ clubmates.
What I wonder is how many fencing clubs in places (mentioned on this forum) even have ten club members, let alone USFA members in their club? I have seen references to fencing groups in some places where I imagine the ten member rule is tough: Tyler, Surfside, Victoria, Lake Jackson, Galveston, Round Rock, Longview...
I'd be interested how the 10-member rule has worked in the past for them (and how the suggested all-member rule might).
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Post by Bill T on Jan 12, 2012 11:41:52 GMT -6
Club owners should be concerned. How many Beginner Class members are USFA members? So, is your insurance of any use to you??
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kon
Moniteur
Posts: 65
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Post by kon on Jan 12, 2012 18:57:38 GMT -6
This is a particularly irksome rule for someone in the Gulf Coast Division, since here a club has to be a USFA member club for something like eight months of the year for two years running to host a USFA competition; for a small club like ours that's pushing it if we observe the ten member rule. So having given the matter much judicious thought and having talked to some officers and other people, I now ignore the ten member rule and sign up right after SN. I list fencers who were members last year, and who will eventually be members this year, but I don't worry about them being current members in July when I sign the club up.
The insurance thing is interesting. I've never heard that. I get insurance through the school, so it's not a deal breaker for me, but if a kid is paying $150 for a beginner class and then has to shell out another $50 for USFA membership so the club is insured, that's a 33% marginal cost increase. I would think that would have an effect on enrollment. I don't make anyone sign up for USFA membership until they go compete.
K O'N
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Post by schlager7 on Jan 13, 2012 14:02:26 GMT -6
Ken SHelton had some trouble posting to the forum, so he emailed me the following and asked that I tack it up for him.
==========================================================================
Our Club in Galveston has lasted for about 10 years because we have had about 4 to 6 core members. Participants have at times gone up to 20 with average being 8 to 14-- all this from memory. To maintain participation we have encouraged, but not required participants to join our club and USFA. Lessons have mostly been free. The insurance is crucial to our existence, but otherwise USFA membership gives us next to nothing. We have been able to fund our member services, mostly providing equipment, with tournament profits. The chance of a rating has helped this, but in this close-knit community, I don't think we could have done tournaments without it, people, god bless them, fencing for the fun of it. If you are talking about 400 plus club dues we might be able to find independent insurance. The 10 member rule is clearly counter
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Post by schlager7 on Jan 13, 2012 14:05:43 GMT -6
I also got another email. This person did not ask me to post for them, so I'll leave their name out.
========================================================================
I'm jumping in here unofficially because I may be able to shed some light on the issue. The 10 member requirement was a decision made by the Board of Directors back in 1999 to address a concern based on past experience. Among other considerations, the idea was to prevent bogus clubs from putting together ad hoc or secondary teams to sandbag team championships or evade the one-club one-team rule.
All that notwithstanding, the Board has this very question on the agenda for its next teleconference meeting, which is later this month. If you have any suggestions, get them to a board member of send them to me and I will convey your comments.
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Post by katyblades on Jan 14, 2012 12:55:30 GMT -6
National teams was a big issue, and putting together specific teams where people were not in the same club was an issue. In one of the late 80s nationals the 76' Olympic foil team contrived a team for nationals. Paul Pesthy also fenced for the New York Athletic Club epee team although he lived in San Antonio. For years I thought he was from New York until I started facing him in the finals locally.
In the Gulf Coast Division, the 10 person club rule slightly hampers team loading, (having multiple clubs from the same location). BCFA and Academy of Fencing are examples of that. There were times were I could have strategically created 6 or 8 clubs and really created havoc on the tournament selection process. USFA club membership is different than insurance, and have one club buy the insurance and make every member primary one club/secondary the club with insurance. Also USFA insurance would cover USFA competitions, so the facility is protected. There are three clubs in the area that could set this up now for $320 and there goes 8 protected weekends each. (That was the old USFA club membership price, I have not opened the packet or looked so I don't know how much new membership is).
I don't really care about the USFA club membership, because unless my students will want to fence team then I don't have any incentive. It is a shame. I am noticing an onslaught of canceled tournaments locally that I GUARANTEE would not have been canceled with the proper policies in place. During this brief several year period I have utilized these marketing approaches to build another large marketing base in other industries. These approaches have worked repeatedly in the business world, it is just that the business owners of clubs are being kept from implementing these policies by non-business oriented decision-makers. These decisions are not made to help fencers, clubs or growing fencers/ often these decisions are made by random and selfish reasons. It was often that with the proper policies in place the USFA would have gained 60 - 100 USFA memberships annually from my club alone. Like we mention on this board about so many opportunities, what a waste.
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