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Post by schlager7 on Jun 5, 2007 7:34:10 GMT -6
(With thanks to kd5mdk for bringing our attention to these points on Fencing Net.)
The Italian Fencing Federation has made the following proposal to the FIE:
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BIB FOIL MASK’S ELECTRIFICATION
The attached drawings clearly show the way to realize the electrification of the bib part that could become a valid target in the foil, using a metallized fabric in practice nowadays to make the electric jacket.
The metallized fabric has to be overlapped with an appropriated sewn to the bib’s part that now cover the valid surface of the electric jacket so it must arrive to the jacket’s neck. It will be required to interpose between the bib and the metallized fabric a layer of insulating material that will be bigger of the metallized part, inside and outside the bib, so to avoid that the sweat, soaking the fabric, could make the entire mask conductive.
With the goal of ensuring the wiring between the bib and the jacket, considering all the problems that a connection wire bib-jacket could causes, the metallized fabric will be sewed entirely on the bib only on the external surface of the mask, while the internal side will be free in correspondence of the superior rim and sewed only along the external perimetral edge; the insulating coating, on the opposite, will be entirely sewed on the inside as on the outside.
Concerning the wiring cable we must say that the current rules on the foil’s contact times allowed the signal of the valid hits on the bib even if it’s not in contact with the jacket at the moment of the first impact.
In this case, in fact, the hit bib is pushed against the jacket by the opposing sword restoring the wire and the successive advertising of the valid hit coloured, while the white hit of the first opposing contact weapons-bib could not have had the required time for his advertising.
All this doesn’t jeopardize, anyway, in case it was believed, the chance of connecting steadily the bib to the jacket with a wire, a metallic button, a stripe of metallic fabric or whatever system could be adopted.
Concerning the use of the foil masks in use nowadays, the bib’s electrification to be adjusted to the new rules could be easily reached, handcrafted by families or fencers, according one of the two underwrote suggestions:
- overlapping to the actual bib the layers insulating and conductive, available at the fencing suppliers, following the position and sewing instructions over mentioned;
- overlapping to the bib a metallized fabric cap, covered in the inside by an insulating material layer, to be fixed at the bib by Velcro, or elastic rings fasten on the safety stripe on the mask’s back.
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I would add that the fencing federation from Brazil has prposed:
Reincorporate the bib as valid surface at foil.
MOTIVATION. Provides greater safety to fencers Diminution of non valid hits during matches Diminution of interruptions during matches Makes the refereeing easier.
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Post by schlager7 on Dec 26, 2007 8:01:58 GMT -6
Now that the Italian proposal to make the foil bib valid target in FIE competitions has passed, the USFA and the fencing NGBs of other nations have to think about its incorporation and the degree of incorporation at local events, etc.
Barry Paul, of Leon Paul, recently posted to just that point on the UK fencing forum. It reads:
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After the last F.I.E. Congress meeting it was decided that in 2009 foil fencers would have to have the valid target extended by including the bib, it is not yet decided exactly what will be the regulation coverage of the bib but best guess is a line drawn horizontally below the chin of the mask. Does this mean the regulation is being introduced mid season for some age groups?
Although this seems a simple change there are a lot of problems associated with such a rule change, British fencing and the home countries will have to make a series of decisions and explain to the fencers within the next few months how U.K. fencing is going to manage/ embrace this proposed change. Not least the manufacturers and re-sellers of foil masks are going to have to decide what to make and sell to fencers in the coming year.
To stimulate debate prior to some urgent decision making, here are some of the issues that need to be considered.
Scope of Application.
Traditionally U.K fencing has followed every new F.I.E. regulations. As 95% of U.K. fencing is not F.I.E. perhaps it is time to be more discerning or less slavish in following all F.I.E. regulations. 1. Only F.I.E. events. 2. Only British Championships and Ranking Opens. 3. All electric size 5 fencing. 4. All size 5 fencing 5. All fencing.
Time Scale.
1. All on 1st January 2009. 2. Staged? If so how and when?
Safety Considerations and Permissible Design.
Both the fencers and the manufacturers/re-sellers are going to have a problem in what to buy what to sell.
Non-Electric fencing.
1. Identification of valid area. At the moment there is no requirement to have the valid area delineated in any way. But if the valid target finishes in a horizontal line should this be marked in some way? On some fencers because of their physical shape of head neck and torso the line will not be horizontal when the mask is worn, is this OK?
Electric Fencing.
1. After consideration of the F.I.E. medical report regarding dangers near the throat, I understand it has been decided to limit the area of lame coverage to a straight line below the chin. 2. It has been suggested that manufacturers can make a sort of sock that can be retro fitted onto an existing bib, however this is likely to leave an open seam between the lame and the bib surface unless the lame is some how attached to the bib surface continually. (This is not some thing which it is easy/possible to retro-fit.). Would an open pocket be acceptable? It could be argued we already have an open seam between the lame jacket and the fencers arm and this does not seem to cause any safety problems. 3. If say from the new year we start adding a line of Velcro along the outer surface of the bib, at the proposed junction of the valid and non valid target, would this work? Would the epeeist decide this was a catching point at epee so we would now have to make masks for foil and different ones for epee? 4. Connection between the foil lame bib and the jacket. It was originally suggested by the original Italian proposers of the new rule that if the lame was on the inside edge of the bib it would not be necessary to attach the bib to the jacket with a head wire. As the foil point hit the mask it would ensure contact between the mask and lame jacket. It has been decided that this was not safe as fencers would deliberately lift their head/bib away from the target to avoid being hit and this was unsafe as the neck would be exposed. I think that this is a typical argument made without any examination of real fencing and/or testing. I would like to see some experimentation of using the proposed bib with out a connection to see what actually happens. (I don’t think fencers have time to react and try to avoid hits by lifting their head when being attacked). It may be that the provision for such a lead needs to be made but only used by U.K fencers in F.I.E. events. 5. If a mask lead is required do all lame jackets need a tag similar to sabre jackets.
Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul.
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Post by schlager7 on Dec 26, 2007 8:14:46 GMT -6
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Post by Parry Nine on Dec 26, 2007 9:00:29 GMT -6
With their XCHANGE system, Leon Paul will make a killing!
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Post by phillipmj on Dec 26, 2007 12:25:52 GMT -6
i think the obvious solution is to just bypass the whole issue and switch to epee. problem solved.
that's ok. no need to thank me. i'm here to help. ;D
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Post by LongBlade on Dec 27, 2007 2:43:36 GMT -6
i think the obvious solution is to just bypass the whole issue and switch to epee. problem solved. that's ok. no need to thank me. i'm here to help. ;D That's just the easy answer... for now. The "powers" that be will have us fencing epee in full-body lames next. All for a TV audience that just doesn't exist. Actually, PMJ, I think boycotting the FIE & the Olympics would be more easy and efficient. It isn't as if the American public would give a d**n about not watching whatever fencing we can get once every 4 years on TV on obscure networks with constant interruptions for "Queer Eye" commercials, or if "world powers" like the French and Italians would miss us anyway. "For Sale: One French Army rifle. Never fired. Dropped only once." "For Sale: Italian tank. Perfect condition, since it was surrendered to Ethiopians bearing only spears and WWI surplus rifles." And, it isn't as if the average American doesn't know everything he knows about fencing from a Zorro movie or a James Bond flick where a right-handed Bond fences epee in a left-handed sabre jacket anyway. Better than your idea, let the FIE ruin fencing with Lexan masks and foil bib lames. Then we bring it back from the ashes since we just fenced like they did it before TV and we just ignored those "world powers" all along.
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Post by Prudence on Dec 29, 2007 17:00:32 GMT -6
Wow... I can't say I didn't see this coming. I guess since the timing changed in foil people figure they might as well make it easier and give fencers more target area. I mean how many times have you been fencing foil and kicked yourself in the foot because you missed the chest and hit the bib?! Well I have that problem because I'm an epeeist.. what is the foilists excuse?
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Post by D on Jan 23, 2008 13:26:29 GMT -6
I think the whole bib thing is retarded!!! damm retarded!!! I say either just go ahead and wear a sabre mask, or leave it the same.
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Post by schlager7 on Apr 22, 2008 22:12:46 GMT -6
From the FIE Urgent Letter of 18 April 2008Following the decisions taken by the 2007 Congress, and at the request of the manufacturers, the new bib in foil will be mandatory as of 1 January 2009 for senior competitions, and as of 1 October 2009 for the junior competitions.
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Post by MTD on Apr 23, 2008 22:11:51 GMT -6
We'll see.
I recall when the FIE voted to start using the "Mangiarotti" point in foil (which, it seems, wasn't actually a design from Mangiarotti!). That one had to be rescinded because the hardware just wasn't available in time to support the original edict.
While it's more reasonable to believe that we'll see bibs become conductive by when they're needed, there certainly do seem to be such loose ends that implementation may get derailed. The thought of a goodly number of fencers holding their heads so their bibs lift off their lamés is disturbing. And, it's difficult to believe that at least some of this won't happen. Do you remember the number of male foilists who developed very delicate chests just after it was widely discovered that "new timigs" foil hits could glance of a "manplate" before having time to register?
Let's see how, and effective as of when, the USFA Board of Directors chooses to respond for USFA competitions. I don't envy them. This is nowhere near as clear-cut a case as to what to do with the FIE adopting "new timings".
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Katman
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Post by Katman on May 2, 2008 11:11:06 GMT -6
I hope they don't wind up doing it, only because I don't want to buy a new freaking piece of equipment or have another thing of lame material that could go dead.
Hits to the bib are so rare that I never considered this an issue, and I'm a relatively crappy foilist in the grand scheme of things. If they're doing this to stop fencers from covering with their mask because of the new timings, then it won't work because they use the mesh in front of their face, not the bib.
Davis, I'm looking right at you.
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Post by schlager7 on Oct 16, 2008 7:28:37 GMT -6
No one has brought it up much here, but Damon Scaggs did post this up on FNet a week back:
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Attention USA International Foil Fencers
The FIE has approved making the bib target in foil.
The proposed timetable is that the FIE will require the conductive bib in Senior competitions starting January 2009 and for Juniors starting the following season in September 2009.
As of yet there are no models or prototypes available. A retrofit overlay system on existing masks is being accepted.
Be prepared to have a saber-like mask connecting cord to run from the new conductive mask bib to the lame and to get your mask retrofitted if you intend to compete in FIE competitions. The implementation date of this change for USFA has not yet been determined. The USFA will wait and see how this develops before implementing it here for our domestic events.
Other major countries such as France, Germany, Italy, Britain and Spain have various timetables for their domestic implementation. To the best of our knowledge the following is the schedule of implementation for the following countries:
Great Britain - Seniors in January 2009, Juniors in September 2009),
Germany - Jan. 1, 2009 for seniors, post-Belfast for Junior/Cadets).
Italy - Jan. 1, 2009 for seniors, post-Belfast for Junior/Cadets)
France - September 2009 for all events
Spain - Yet to decide.
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Post by vraptor on Oct 16, 2008 13:53:05 GMT -6
Ah! Another desperately needed solution to a non-problem.'
Being the dinosaur that I am, I remember when you had four judges and the bib was target. But manufacturers didn't seem to want to offer masks that did what is now being proposed. The solution was to change the legal target area slightly. It was a clean, neat solution and it didn't cause any problems. We all got used to fencing that way.
Please note. The technology hasn't changed much. The fabrics are better, but the basic implementation scheme could have been put into place years ago. Why is there this sudden urge to add the bib back in? The argument that it would reduce the number of off-target hits is a red herring. It's no different than landing just outside the lame, or (grrr) just inside the lame on the jacket, or on the mask. That's where the vast majority of off-target hits occur anyway.
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Post by schlager7 on Oct 19, 2008 22:17:19 GMT -6
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Post by schlager7 on Oct 30, 2008 9:27:28 GMT -6
According to the FIE, it looks like juniors competing in international events will have a bit longer to get the bib lame' The full message is here: FIE Letter2) Electric bib in foil Following the decisions taken by the 2007 Congress, and at the request of the manufacturers, the new bib in foil will be mandatory as of 1 January 2009 for senior competitions, and as of 1 October 2009 for the junior competitions.
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Post by schlager7 on Dec 17, 2008 8:24:35 GMT -6
In the parallel discussion on Fencing Net, a new post by Gilbert Bailey - fencePBT.com, Inc. added this information:
Here is what I know:
For FIE events you not only need to have the conducting material (most people know this), the bib must be 1600N (FIE) of course and you also need a tang that bears the M2009 (for mask 2009, like s2000 for sabre etc...) or greater FIE manufacturer mark (most people are unaware of this). You can't just simply switch out the bib as you will fail at weapons check for not having the M2009 mark. We do have the new PBT FIE mask with conductive foil bib in stock in case someone has a question about the design.
I have spoken to the USFA about their position on the topic. The FIE made a provision for local fencing federations. They can implement the new rule however they see fit. Meaning that they do not have to require a 1600N material bib or the M2009+ manufacturer's mark on the tang of the mask. As a result they are hoping that manufacturers will offer kits or allow fencers to send in masks for retro fitting by sewing lame material onto the bib. We have determined for example that if we do not have to deal with the tang that sewing on lame material can work for a PBT mask. This will also prevent fencers from having to upgrade to the more expensive 1600N / stainless steel format. They will be taking a wait and see position for the 2009-2010 fencing season. They will then review the situation to see if they should adopt the bib as target. (keeping in mind that their implementation will be different in terms of bib resistance, markings etc...)
There is always the remote possibility that they might decide to go with the more stringent 1600N bib but I don't see that as likely. They may also decide to extend their wait and see position.
This information is current within about two weeks.
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Post by fox on Dec 18, 2008 8:40:15 GMT -6
Great more pricey changes. I guess they don't care so much at the international level where most fencers are subsidized by their national government. Kinda tough for Americans, though, where we still buy into all that "amateur" blather.
I doubt our cash-strapped USFA will foot the bill.
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nemo
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Post by nemo on Dec 18, 2008 8:50:06 GMT -6
My, we sound testy or bitter today. I like to just think of it as yet one more reason to fence epee. ;D
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Post by schlager7 on Feb 14, 2009 20:46:54 GMT -6
The USFA Board of Directors meets tonight. One motion on the agenda, coming up for its first hearing is the following...
Motion (Mr. Baker):
To adopt rules changes to reflect a change in the target area in foil to include a portion of the lower bib, matching the current rules in effect for FIE competition. The effective date of these rules changes will be August 1, 2009 for all national tournaments and qualifiers to national tournaments. The effective date of these rules changes will be August 1, 2010 for all other competitions at all levels governed by the rules of US Fencing.
Rationale:
Now that the new target area has actually gone into use internationally it appears significantly less likely that there will be additional near-term modifications to these rules. It is important that US Fencing stay in sync with the rules used in fencing in the rest of the world.
While it is noted that there are significant costs to retrofitting existing equipment, this is a cost which is unavoidable if we wish to remain in conformity with the most recent developments in the sport.
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Post by vraptor on Feb 15, 2009 15:27:19 GMT -6
In other words: Here's the hoop. You jump.
The USFA, in this time of recession could just have easily said, we will not implement this nationally, but members who do compete in FIE events will have to comply with FIE rules.
But my original question still stands. Why did the FIE adopt this rule in the first place? We're not talking about a significant increase in target area.
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nemo
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Post by nemo on Feb 16, 2009 12:46:38 GMT -6
But my original question still stands. Why did the FIE adopt this rule in the first place? We're not talking about a significant increase in target area. Whaddaya want? Point control? Geez!
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Post by Dan Gorman on Feb 17, 2009 9:53:48 GMT -6
It might be an answer to those who distort their en garde to hide as much target behind their bib/mask as possible. If you duck and keep your head up, thebib becomes a shield and it's a pain to hit you. If that shield is worth a point now, people might start fencing right.
Note, this is just my theory.
Dan t
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nemo
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Post by nemo on Feb 17, 2009 11:35:13 GMT -6
You know, it just figures.
I'd bet you're right.
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Post by Aldo N on Feb 17, 2009 14:11:10 GMT -6
It's an endless arms-race type affair. SOmeone finds a new way to work around the rules and new rules are created to keep it in check or, as in this case, changes are made in the equipment.
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Post by vraptor on Feb 17, 2009 15:13:33 GMT -6
It might be an answer to those who distort their en garde to hide as much target behind their bib/mask as possible. If you duck and keep your head up, thebib becomes a shield and it's a pain to hit you. If that shield is worth a point now, people might start fencing right. t Maybe at the en garde line, but once the phrase starts, all bets are off. You can't fence and hold your head in such an unnatural attitide.
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