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Post by schlager7 on Dec 7, 2010 21:14:56 GMT -6
...small Paukvorführung for Malagasy students from Strasbourg ...
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Post by schlager7 on Dec 7, 2010 21:29:50 GMT -6
After I posted newsreel footage of actual epee duels to first blood, I received many requests for footage of German university student fraternity duels (schlager mensuren). As far as I know, no such footage exists (although I still make periodic inquiries). That said, German media has included scenes of such from time to time. Presuming at least a portion of their audience would have some first-hand knowledge, we will presume these scenes are somewhat faithful...
From the film Hans Westmar - Einer von Vielen ("Hans Westmar - One of Many") 1933
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Extract from the film Der Untertan ("The Subject") from the book by Heinrich Mann
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Tatort im Ersten - Akademisches Fechten (This is a long clip. I advise starting around the 4 minute mark.)
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Post by bladesparks on Dec 8, 2010 7:59:26 GMT -6
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Post by vraptor on Dec 8, 2010 10:56:14 GMT -6
It's what the Germans used to do in between pointless military adventures.
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Post by seguin on Dec 8, 2010 12:25:01 GMT -6
I would add that this is still done among the student dueling fraternities, not only in Germany but parts of Switzerland, the Netherlands and Poland (the part that was once Eastern Germany).
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Post by bladesparks on Dec 9, 2010 8:02:10 GMT -6
I guess my surprise is because the blades seem obviously to be sharp. I would have thought such a sport would be illegal, even in Europe.
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Post by fox on Dec 9, 2010 8:37:38 GMT -6
I guess my surprise is because the blades seem obviously to be sharp. I would have thought such a sport would be illegal, even in Europe. The same Europe that includes countries with bullfighting? or (until recently) fox hunting? To be fair, neither the bullfight nor the mensur are "sports." They are more cultural rituals. It is an Americanism to see such things through a prism of "competition." I would add that men have died in the boxing ring. America has MMA/UFC events, far more physically punishing than a cut to the face.
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Post by seguin on Dec 9, 2010 12:28:39 GMT -6
I recall reading ("somewhere") that they are able to skirt the laws against dueling since the purpose of these encounters is not to kill.
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Post by dundrillon on Mar 14, 2011 12:57:07 GMT -6
So you are an American and like the idea of Mensur fencing and would like to get some gear? Well, it can be done, but it is both expensive and a real hassle. I have just completed an equipment purchase and would like to share my experience with you.
First, there is just no new Mensur equipment available in the USA. I spent over a month looking. Everything comes from Europe, principally from Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
These items are sold by "Couleurartikel-Händler," usually small shops which carry university student items. However, many of these merchants only deal in activity related items, such as caps, ribbons, mugs, jewelry, etc., rather than the fencing equipment itself.
Catalog orders do not work as in the USA. You will need to deal with these companies personally. All of my communication was in German via e-mail. None of the companies I contacted had any English speaking employees. They used machine translated letters that were often difficult to understand. Machine translation cannot be relied upon, especially in this case. Mensur has its own vocabulary and language, which does not translate well on a word by word basis. For example, Mensurkörbschlägerscheide, or "sword scabbard" literally translates as Scale-Basket-Bat-girl thingy (no kidding). Further, since the catalogs are in German with little or no translation and frequently are not illustrated, you will need to be familiar with Mensur terms and have at least a general idea of what you want. Fortunately for me, I spoke enough German to compose workable letters. I would highly recommend asking a German-speaking friend for help, if at all possible.
German business seems to move very slowly. I experienced delays in e-mail replies of up to a week at a time. I also perceived a general lack of interest on their part in doing international sales. Not hostile, just indifferent. As usual, however, money talks.
Prices vary considerably among the sources. These 2011 prices are in Euros. My cost actually went up $17.00 USD in three hours due to a change in the exchange rate. There is also a 19% VAT included, which they do not waive, even on foreign orders.
Sample prices: Paukkörb: 105-141 plus 25 for parts (w/o blade) Mensurkörb: 260-330 plus 25 for parts (w/o blade) Sleeve: 250-400 Mask: 280-575 Goggles: 250-350 Chain mail tunic: 1400
Important Note: Nobody will send you a blade from Germany. You are on your own. I was able to find a source for WKC Solingen blades in the USA, however, and assembled a complete weapon myself. This is not a difficult task. Cost is about $75 USD.
Additionally, these companies do not take credit cards. Most require wire transfers between banks. This will cost you $40-50 USD per transaction.
Shipping is also expensive. Shipping to the USA for just a basket and scabbard was $75 USD and $45 USD for a mask. Shipping takes about a week following fabrication of the item (the baskets have custom colors), which can take up to three weeks.
Bottom line: If you like a challenge, have the time and deep pockets, go for it, otherwise consider SCA, HEMA, Olympic, etc., instead, since the cost differential can be significant.
Best regards,
Dundrillon
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Post by joevisconti on Mar 15, 2011 11:50:04 GMT -6
I find the concept of the schlager "duel" interesting. It would be a mistake to take that to mean I have any interest in facing a razor sharp sword actually coming at my face.
OTOH, I found your account of the purchase process for the gear interesting and amusing, especially the "Scale-Basket-Bat-girl thingy."
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Post by dundrillon on Mar 28, 2011 1:55:48 GMT -6
Even back in the day, public perception of Mensur outside of the German university fencing community was not clear. Here is an article from a popular British newspaper in 1884. I think it still provides a good explanation and description of the practice for the uninitiated.
In: Littell's Living Age, Volume 160, pp. 512-513, Edited by Eliakim Littell and Robert S. Littell, January, February, March, 1884.
From: The Saturday Review (1855-1958). "GERMAN STUDENTS' DUELS"
In the German Schläger combat the position is the same as in back-swording, save that the left arm is kept, as in sabre play, behind the body; commonly the waistband of the trousers is grasped by the left hand. The weapon is a long, narrow blade, like a pointless rapier, but much more flexible. It is sharpened for a length of twenty centimetres (say eight inches) on the true edge, and five on the false edge. For practice and instruction blunt and rather stouter blades are used. The mask is like an English single-stick mask, but stronger and heavier. A padded leather vest, coming almost down to the knees, covers the body, and the right arm is encased in a sleeve attached to a gauntlet, which may be compared to an elongated Rugby football. In the actual duel there is an even more elaborate system of defense ; the right wrist is guarded with a ring of mail, and the arm with folds of silk, which, like the turban of the East, are enough to stop any ordinary cut. Practically, though not according to strict rule, the body is altogether covered. The eyes are protected by iron spectacles, with strong wire net instead of glasses. A padded cap, defending the top of the head, is added to all this for students in their first year, who fight only under the direction of their seniors. The more advanced Burschen do not wear these caps, and are thus exposed to much more serious blows. It is known to English readers by many descriptions that the duels are not, as a rule, the outcome of any real quarrel; they are arranged by the leaders of the fighting "Corps" of students, or by the senior members between themselves. At the same time challenges to serious duels with the Schläger are not unknown. Such a duel is called "glad" because only town gloves (glad-Handschuhe) may be worn and the ordinary equipment is discarded. It involves very serious danger, and is outside the rules of the game, no man being held bound to accept a challenge in this form. There are, however, sundry degrees of severity in recognized duels. First-year men (Füchse) (Eng. "foxes") fight with caps for twenty-four rounds (Gauge, equivalent to the French phrase in fencing) of seven blows each. The regular form of duel for seniors is a quarter of an hour's fighting without caps. This may be made sharper by dispensing with seconds; for the second in a Schläger duel has not merely judicial or diplomatic functions. He stands close beside his man, holding an unsharpened Schläger with which he may parry as many blows as he thinks fit, and often he does parry a large proportion. As to the manner of play, the cuts are aimed only at the head, and are delivered, not with the centre of percussion, but with the extreme forward part of the blade, which alone, as we have said, is sharpened. It is worth notice that the Schläger is derived from the long straight sword of the German Reiters, the force of whose blows made them famous in the sixteenth century at the battle of St. Quentin and elsewhere. They gave neither sweeping horizontal cuts like Orientals, nor drawing cuts like most European swordsmen, but struck in the line of their own motion with a continuing forward impetus, and did great execution. With the modern Schläger the blow comes entirely from the wrist, and (as in English backswording) has no movement of the body or limbs lo aid it. Really serious wounds are hardly known, but it is quite possible for the surgeon in attendance to have a troublesome piece of work. Small arteries, for example, may be divided and have to be taken up. On the whole, there is not more danger to life or limb in a Schläger duel, for healthy men and with the usual precautions, than in any other rough pastime : probably there is not so much as in the Rugby game of football under the old rules. But the effusion of blood and the necessary presence and use of surgical appliances make it appear a barbarous affair to any one not bred to familiarity with it. And the play is said to be falling off in the skill which was its only justification. Twenty years ago (1864) the players hardly ever led off with a direct attack, which was thought too rash, but feinted and watched for their opportunity on a return. Of late years it has become a fashion to discard policy, and try for hits by main force; the weapons are also heavier than they used to be. Some local differences exist, or existed not long ago, in the fashion of the Schläger. The Glockenschläger, common in the north German universities, has a peculiar mounting, and is grasped like an Italian foil with a finger round the cross-bar. Formerly the small-sword was used as well; it is mentioned by Crabb Robinson in his diary as being somewhere (at Jena, if our memory serves us) the regular instrument of students' duels. This usage, however, survives only, if it still does survive, at Munich. Possibly some reader may be curious concerning the literature of the Schläger. We believe that of technical literature there is little or none. The rules of the duel are preserved in manuscript books, and may probably be found in print. But the art seems to depend wholly upon oral tradition, which is to be regretted. For whatever we may think of Schläger duelling, it has been for many generations a singular feature of German university life; and it deserves to have some better record than the casual descriptions of strangers before it goes the way of English backswording.
Dundrillon
"The cemeteries are full of men who mistook my good manners for weakness." Wild Bill Hickok (1837-1876)
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Post by schlager7 on Jun 23, 2011 23:22:37 GMT -6
German duelling clubs in race row over Asian member16 June 2011 Last updated at 09:49 ET BBC News EuropeA row with uncomfortable echoes of the past is gripping the world of Germany's student duelling societies after a club admitted a non-European member. Duellers in Munich objected to the fact a Mannheim club had allowed a member with an Asian background to join, despite his service in the German army. Mannheim members stood by their decision, and called for a more liberal direction for the clubs. The clubs' national association insisted they were not racist. Stefan Dobner, its spokesman, said it was wrong to say the row was over an "Aryan" condition of membership for duelling societies. The fraternities condemned racism, he said. Under Hitler, Germany enacted race laws which stressed the superiority of the "Aryan race", as northern Europeans were defined by the Nazis. About 1,300 Germans are active members of the 100 or so student duelling societies, or Burschenschaften, which also count some 10,000 past members. Swords and scarsThe current argument is over whether people with immigrant backgrounds can be true Germans, and part of what some see as a quintessentially German institution, the BBC's Stephen Evans reports from Berlin. The row has thrown into disarray an arcane and secretive world of fraternities forged through duelling, he says. Such societies are usually male and involve dressing up in traditional 19th Century outfits, as well as drinking and fighting with swords. Real swords are used and the men who join often sport a scar on their cheeks to show they have fought a real duel. The Mannheim issue was to be debated at the annual meeting of the societies to be held in the town of Eisenach this weekend. There was a feeling from the more conservative elements in Bavaria that, according to internal documents, members with "non-European facial and bodily characteristics" did not qualify as Germans and so could not join what the objectors see as a bastion of true German identity, our correspondent says. "Especially in times of rising immigration, it is not acceptable that people who are not from the German family tree should be admitted to the Burschenschaften," as one document puts it. Different timesThe threatened club responded with a statement on its website signed by its spokesman, Kai-Ming Au. It said that the club would fight strongly against the attempt to expel it from the national association and would push for reform at national level. A spokesman for the umbrella organisation of the fraternities in Germany said there had been long discussions and it had been decided not to expel the Mannheim club, though there would be further discussions. The difficulty for the associations is that Germany has changed, our correspondent adds. Citizenship used to be based on "blood lines" - in other words, immigrants were excluded - and the duelling clubs mirrored that idea.
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Post by schlager7 on Jun 23, 2011 23:24:49 GMT -6
'Not Aryan enough': duelling club split over member's expulsionThe IndependentBy Tony Paterson in Berlin
Thursday, 16 June 2011The fossilised world of Germany's student-duelling clubs was in turmoil yesterday after the national umbrella organisation was shown to have adopted a Nazi-style race code demanding the banning of members with foreign parents on the grounds that they were insufficiently "Aryan". Germany has over 100, mostly right-wing, student duelling clubs or Burschenschaften, which claim an almost exclusively male membership of around 10,000. Members wear 19th-century uniforms and take part in ritualised fencing and beer-drinking competitions. But the normally secretive workings of the Burschenschaften received embarrassing publicity yesterday after disclosures that the umbrella organisation was threatening to expel one club for admitting a German citizen with Chinese parents. The duelling-club member in question was not named but Burschenschaft documents leaked to Der Spiegel magazine revealed that he was a member of the Hansea duelling club in the western city of Mannheim. They said he held German citizenship and had also served in the German army. "He wears duelling-club colours with pride and believes in the German Fatherland" is how the documents described him. Burschenschaft members attending their national annual general meeting in the historic eastern town of Eisenach were yesterday being asked to vote on a motion to expel the Hansea club for admitting the member with Chinese parents. According to the umbrella organisation's race code, he did not qualify as a member of the "German people". Der Spiegel said the motion was accompanied by legal documents drawn up for the umbrella group by the Alte Breslauer duelling club in Bonn and apparently approved by a majority of the country's Burschenschaften. The documents stipulated that prospective members with "non-European facial and bodily characteristics" did not qualify as Germans. The documents, written in part by a right-wing member of the Bavarian conservative party, also said: "Especially in times of rising immigration, it is not acceptable that people who are not from the German family tree should be admitted to the Burschenschaften." The race code row was last night threatening to split the Burschenschaften. Several delegates at the Eisenach meeting were said to be highly critical of the expulsion motion. One described it as "like introducing an Aryan identity card". No Burschenschaft spokesmen commented officially.
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Post by schlager7 on Nov 18, 2011 8:34:26 GMT -6
Mondo di notte (World Without Shame) is a mondo film of Italian director Gianni Proia from the year 1963. It shows the typical mix of sex, violence and curiosities in documentary footage from different countries.
You can advance to 2:20 or 2:30 to go straight to the part involving blades...
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nemo
Blademaster
mobilis in mobili
Posts: 729
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Post by nemo on Nov 18, 2011 12:38:04 GMT -6
College students, beer and sharp toys... The results are inevitable.
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