nemo
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Post by nemo on Dec 31, 2006 20:17:09 GMT -6
Boy, you go away for a couple of days and come back and what do you find? First, I get a widely copied-&-recopied email from Louise Lepie (not originally addressed to me, mind you, as we don't do tea together) stating that BCFA will have two tournaments in January (first & second weekends, respectively). Why funny? Those are the weekends (according to both official division calendar & rogue division calendar) for tournaments by a club called the Academy of Fencing. This is, allegedly, a distinct and separate club from BCFA, in spite of the fact they share the same address, club owner, email and url. Don't believe me, check them out on the USFA "find a club" link for Texas. I have never really gotten my brain to wrap around what is actually different about BCFA & Academy of Fencing. Obviously the lady running both can't tell the difference either. Second, we have the revived "Houston Cup." Now, don't get me wrong. I think the original idea is still good (I fenced in a couple of them), but now it morphs into this funky Katy Blades/Alliance own little division-in-a-division. They have a tournament scheduled almost every weekend, even over the dreaded SSCC dates (lions & tigers & bears, oh my!). I thought they might be breaking some kinda rule... you know, not scheduling over SSCCs, protected local dates, etc... Nope. I was horribly wrong. You see, when it is a protected (or at least scheduled) Alliance or Katy Blades date, it is "USFA Format." If, however, it is opposite Salle Mauro, BCFA, South Houston, whatever, it is "NCAA Format." Presumably this makes it all better. Now unless they are fielding a single pool of 30-60 fencers broken up around the room in sets of 3 vs 3, I have no idea what they mean by "NCAA Format." I guess because NCAA events do not issue USFA letter classifications, they are "OK" to be held in conflict with Brazosport, Clear Lake, A&M, the Oz Parsons, the Rose Condon, whatever. Pleeeze. Louise, Andrey, Augie, my thanks. I guess I just needed to know that the circus didn't leave town while I was away. C-ya. I'm off to ring in 2007!
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Post by fox on Jan 1, 2007 12:51:29 GMT -6
Oh, for Heaven's Sake. Do we have to dwell on this?
I stayed away from this forum during the Hamza-Geva Wars. So did a lot of others. Everyone knows who does what. Why egg it on?
You can find that sort of stuff anywhere at anytime: clubs, church groups, schools.
Besides, everyone you mentioned has also done their share of good work, as well. There are plenty of people, in this division and in this section, who just try to work within the system not around it. Try and give them some encouragement.
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Post by katyblades on Jan 1, 2007 13:12:02 GMT -6
Nemo,
I have not seen you at the recent Houston Cup's, so you missed the experience. Everyone in specific divisions A1/Div. II/ Div.III/Youth etc. fences everyone else. When I fenced in this I fenced no less than 12 five touch bouts, and usually 6 or more "A" epeeists. Then we fenced DEs.
We did this at Sebastiani's, and we did this at a Circuit in San Antonio with one-touch epee and 60/70 with DEs the day after the official tournament. This was run entirely by the USFA.
The youth have fenced 10 - 15 bouts, and had a wonderful experience also. What is there to complain about? This is currently being done in the ALM division, and other areas of the country if you look on askfred or ask the coaches. I have been told specifically by the current USFA officers to hold these type of tournaments for my youth, that they don't need USFA tournaments.
I am in the unique position of being a fencer that likes to fence a lot, a dad of fencers and a coach with beginners and now national level fencers. I don't see the problem with more fencing as long as it is not destructive to the other tournaments. I have participated in the local USFA events that I am eligible for, so no one should complain about me being not supportive of USFA events. I also have sent nice groups to the local tournaments, often having to wire personal blades so that they would have equipment to use and loaning equipment. Before anyone makes accusations that I am trying to hurt the USFA, please compare their memberships and people that they have directly recruited to fencing to mine. I have peers such as Jerry Dunaway, Mauro, Andrey, Louise but not many more names come of the list. I am only counting since 2001, and not what I did in the early 80s keeping the Aggie club alive when the admin. wanted to kill it, and helping clubs here and in this section get started.
If you look at the Houston Cup schedule, it is what Andrey has posted for his club's training. There is currently not a Katy Blades event on this schedule. I plan to have at least one, during the USFA weekend event that I have. I just know as a supporter of fencing that this is a great idea. I have let my club know about it and encouraged them to participate.
I think you can tell that I think this is a good idea. It can also be replicated for saber and foil. I am already talking about doing this with other clubs.
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Post by fox on Jan 1, 2007 15:16:30 GMT -6
Augie:
Nemo enjoys starting stuff, but I think he's more cynical than malicious.
I don't understand the NCAA reference myself, but would I be correct in presuming these are what we used to call "practice tournaments" in my neck of the woods?
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Post by katyblades on Jan 1, 2007 17:07:15 GMT -6
Fox,
Thanks. At the NCAAs the past two years, every fencer fenced every other fencer in their event. Victories were tallied and the top four fencers fenced DEs. Andrey probably figured all Houston area fencers were familiar with that format so that is why he used the terms. I am trying to work with both Salle Mauro and BCFA to set up something similar for saber and foil. We tried this with Marty before, and no one supported it. It does rankle me that something that is great for all fencers in the area is implied as illegal or unethical.
The truth of the matter is that the promotion of the USFA is up to the division officers. USFA tournaments are up to the USFA officers. USFA officers are voted on by USFA members, (***If their vote is counted***), and therefore if you voted and your vote was counted then you were either voted for these USFA officers or for someone else, period. If you did not vote then you should not criticize. If you voted but your vote did not count then I am sorry but you will have to talk to Colorado or the Olympic Committee. If you voted for someone else then you can only work within the confines of the membership of this administration of the USFA. As this board has pointed out, USFA fencing does not own a patent on all things with the a sword. NCAA and high school fencing are growing in some parts of the country and do not have anything to do with the USFA.
I know that I am using these events as training tournaments for myself or my club members. When you get the experience of fencing DEs, or being 14-14 with or without priority, it can't help but be a benefit when you go to NACs. I get to work on moves I am working on for my lessons, although I still do that in local competitions also.
I think that "practice tournaments" is a great term, although some of these Houston Cup events will be real USFA tournaments.
I know that Andrey and I will be using these tournaments as a way to choose the Junior and Div 1 teams for the team events at Nationals. I am working hard at staying on the points so I can still qualify for the Div. I team at my own club. It will be soon that I won't be able to qualify for the Div. I team because my own students will be better. Once Chase gets his "C" we'll be able to join the Hurley/Hurme club with our own Div. I team.
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Post by phincer on Jan 2, 2007 8:21:42 GMT -6
Boy, you go away for a couple of days and come back and what do you find? First, I get a widely copied-&-recopied email from Louise Lepie (not originally addressed to me, mind you, as we don't do tea together) stating that BCFA will have two tournaments in January (first & second weekends, respectively). Why funny? Those are the weekends (according to both official division calendar & rogue division calendar) for tournaments by a club called the Academy of Fencing. This is, allegedly, a distinct and separate club from BCFA, in spite of the fact they share the same address, club owner, email and url. Don't believe me, check them out on the USFA "find a club" link for Texas. I have never really gotten my brain to wrap around what is actually different about BCFA & Academy of Fencing. Obviously the lady running both can't tell the difference either. Ah, dear Nemo, Ms. Lepie is only exercising her rights as a businesswoman. If you check the Harris County records she has over 30 names for fencing clubs registered. She is only using two, so I guess that is something to be grateful for. (perhaps the others are trotted out only for special occasions?)
As far as the Houston Cup goes-if say, another club like BCFA is having a D and under tournament, and I choose to go practice with a big ol' chunk of A-rated fencers over at ALL, what's the harm? I've decided to improve my fencing, not chase a rating. Same with going to the Rose, or any other 'sanctioned' tournament. The GCD and the USFA cannot tell me when and where to fence, they can only hand out a rating. Like Augie says, the USFA doesn't hold a patent on all things fencing.
It would be nice to have foil and saber 'practice tournaments' going on as well. Jerry could hold some foil over at SHHS, and with a $5 -$10 floor fee for non SHHS fencers, rake in some change for his club. That's something I think the Houston foil fencing community should support and encourage. (don't get me started on the local school districts and the lack of imagination when it comes to starting high school clubs)
Besides, "Houston Cup #1" sounds so much better than "practice tournament #1".
Happy New Year everyone!
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Post by fox on Jan 2, 2007 10:16:20 GMT -6
Indeed. I saw schlager7 was apparantly amused by a number of similar events.
(If you haven't checked out the current rogue site, do it.)
He seemed amused but without malice as he covered:
Louise scheduling over herself;
CLFC having to reschedule their "tournament formerly known as Fall" to January so Clear LAKE could hold a tournament in a venue with running water?!!!?!
the SWIFA 3 + 2.5 saga (which has been playing out on this forum for weeks);
and the fact that the least controversial weekend seemed to belong to Salle Mauro.
Oh, indeed. There has been active UIL fencing in the past (I can't speak for Texas). SWIFA is non-USFA. The NCAA is a non-USFA organization. I am not sure either way about USACFC, but I am guessing they are similar to SWIFA and NCAA, in that USFA membership is not required.
BTW Phincer, does the Houston Cup have an actual 'cup."
I only ask because I do not recall seeing any actual "cups" awarded when the Div I/Jr NAC was in Houston last year. I was wondering if "Cup" in a tournament title had lost its literal meaning.
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Post by schlager7 on Jan 2, 2007 10:32:43 GMT -6
He seemed amused but without malice Thanks for noting that, and thanks for the plug.
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nemo
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Post by nemo on Jan 2, 2007 11:26:10 GMT -6
I think he's more cynical than malicious. No, it's about an even split with me.
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Post by phincer on Jan 2, 2007 12:53:38 GMT -6
BTW Phincer, does the Houston Cup have an actual 'cup." I only ask because I do not recall seeing any actual "cups" awarded when the Div I/Jr NAC was in Houston last year. I was wondering if "Cup" in a tournament title had lost its literal meaning. I have seen no cup...(and you may all thank me for NOT inserting an underwear joke here)...but the season ain't over yet! Then again, many 'cups' as in trophies are actually bowls. Many bowl trophies are actually not bowls at all. The possibilities for a lovely trophy are endless...who knows what they will come up with. Maybe all the winners will get out of it are bragging rights.
I think I've seen some kind of gift bags/baskets awarded at the NAC, but the North American Gift Basket is a silly name for a tournament series.
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Post by schlager7 on Jan 2, 2007 13:10:39 GMT -6
I think I've seen some kind of gift bags/baskets awarded at the NAC, but the North American Gift Basket is a silly name for a tournament series.Not if the sponsor if FTD! Besides, it has an awfully friendly rign to it. ;D (and, yes, we do appreciate that you resisted temptation on the underwear joke!)
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Post by JEC on Jan 2, 2007 13:31:27 GMT -6
As usual, the politics of GCD just remind me of the peaceful co-existence at the South Texas division. We're blessed!! Happy New Year to all.
REMINDER: 3-weapon VETERAN Event on January 13-14 in San Antonio.
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Post by katyblades on Jan 2, 2007 13:45:17 GMT -6
Dear Fox and Phincer and Schlager7,
Thanks.
The reason it was called the Houston Cup is because it was stealing from what was a great idea in Ca. and permission was given to us by Eric. Alex P. and I were looking for more ways to fence locally in USFA events. Obviously, that is not working in our division but at least training tournaments can be held. We were going to have cups made, but the whole program was killed when the USFA tournaments were designated illegal by the EC.
There were many beatiful, custom medals made for the Houston Cup last year with the many collected, but they are now outdated with 2007.
I forgot how we also had the Texas Collegiate Championships totally separate from any USFA jurisdiction for many years. It was just a way for us to fence more. Yeah.
Augie
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Post by Aldo N on Jan 2, 2007 18:54:43 GMT -6
We were going to have cups made, but the whole program was killed when the USFA tournaments were designated illegal by the EC. First, let me add that I think all the practice tourneys in the world are just fine. "Illegal" seems an overly harsh term for something that just won't get you arrested. Perhaps "non-sanctioned" would be more accurate. I surmise that is the reason. I also seem to recall something involving a Ms. Baumgart and a Mr. Alperstein, neither of whom are members of the Gulf Coast Division, let alone the divisional "EC." Finally, to JEC (whom I respect greatly for his "veterans circuit' concept), the more I visit with fencers in Austin and San Antonio the more I wonder how long your existence in South Texas will be so peaceful. I seem to encounter a fair amount of grumbling within your division. I expect some sort of major shift or eruption in the next few years. True, they climb on the internet here, but they air their differences honestly and, one the whole, this has seemed a fairly tame exchange. Augie, as to the medals (and I have not seen one) were the years actually engraved or part of the mold, or just part of a mylar-type insert. If the latter, you should be able to take them to where they were made and have the mylar inserts/decals removed and replaced for a fraction of the cost of replacement medals. (The local HS track group in my neighborhood does this all the time).
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Post by katyblades on Jan 2, 2007 20:05:15 GMT -6
Aldo,
The medals were engraved, and custom made for the Houston Cup. That is one of the things that made the Bay Cup so special, is you knew where the person won the medal.
When Gerrie and Don came in, we discussed the tournament overlap and there was a distinction made between an event, (Men's epee, Women's Epee, Y10 epee, etc.), and a tournament. Don had the opinion that tournaments overlapping was not the problem, just events that conflicted. It was the consensus in the room, and I even made a motion that we allow each club to reserve a weekend to run any events that they want on that day. All other clubs would not be able to run the same event that day, or a conflicting event such as Div. II Men's epee versus Div. III. Attendees at the meeting even discussed it in the hall after the meeting to make certain that we had voted on the same thing.
That is how we have arrived at the situation we have now, but instead of allowing tournaments that are separate and not competing then all other USFA tournaments are banned. That is not the motion I made, and since it was my motion something must have gotten lost in the translation.
Maybe I picked up the word "illegal" from emails from the division officers to myself the night before a tournament that had been properly scheduled in the past. I even saw such an email this past week about a tournament properly on the calendar that has broken some imagined rule or procedure. Amazing how history repeats itself.
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Post by JEC on Jan 3, 2007 0:36:03 GMT -6
It is clear that for some, Fencing is their business. Salle owners have vested interests in pushing forward their turf, their fencers, their tournaments. For some reason, perhaps, because there is considerably more geographical separation between STX clubs, politics are less intense. However, I truly think that the style of leadership that our STX president has exercised has A LOT to do with the peace in our division. I publicy congratulate Oscar on a great tenure and an outstanding job as STX division president. I personally hope that he wants to continue SERVING as our president for several more years.
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Post by schlager7 on Jan 3, 2007 8:29:14 GMT -6
Honest differences of opinion and robust discussion should not be confused with rancor. Nor, do I believe, should they be repressed.
Witness Augie and I. Often we take diametrically opposed views on a position. Just as often we have applauded an idea or action by the other (in every bit as public a forum as the one in which we expressed our disagreement with each other).
Good people may disagree and argue.
True, we are a competitve, tricky and adversarial bunch. Then too, the first people who fenced in what is now the Gulf Coast Division were pirates. We can be colorful on our slow days.
There are divisions where the... uhm... divisions run much stronger. One area in our section (different division), the chasm between opposing camps is so strong you will not find fencers from one group even competing in a tournament run by the other.
JEC makes a good point that, with the core of our division in Houston, a lot of pressure builds, but less than you would think. Just before the holidays I had the opportunity to referee at our local JO Qualifiers. There is a lot at stake and turnout was better than healthy.
Both Junior Men's and Women's Foil events were D1 competitions. Women's Foil had competitors from CLFC, BCFA, Alliance, Salle Mauro and South Houston. Men's Foil was heavy on the South Houston side, but had fencers from BCFA, Salle Mauro, Alliance and the University of St. Thomas.
Junior Men's Epee was an A1 competition, with keen competitors from Katy Blades, Salle Mauro and Alliance, as well as fencers from CLFC, Brazosport, Westchester, South Houston and St. Thomas. A lot of these guys come from clubs in sharp rivalry with each other, yet they were both intense competitors and fine gentlemen on strip.
We are not a unanimous group by any stretch. We also do not sublimate it when we disagree. Additionally, we have our share of those with a vision for what they think will benefit fencing in our area. Often these are at variance with the visions of others.
This is why we have elections. Results are not a foregone conclusion. Dan Gorman once remarked of the apathy within the division. I was there for part of that. He is right. I am just pleased that is no longer the case.
An apathetic population content to let the "one guy who will do the work" have the job just doesn't have the dynamic appeal to me of a competing marketplace of ideas and philosophies. In the time I have been involved in local fencing our division has been led by Mauro Hamza, Andrey Geva and Louise Lepie. Each is a radically different personality type than the other two. In time, someone else will take the mantle and the tide will shift again. Some will be happy at the change. Others will not and will begin working to realize their own vision.
It keeps us on our toes.
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nemo
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Post by nemo on Jan 3, 2007 9:34:08 GMT -6
Indeed. I saw schlager7 was apparantly amused by a number of similar events.
(If you haven't checked out the current rogue site, do it.) I thought it over-long, but the swordfight on the ship was pretty cute. clfc.2itb.com/
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Post by vraptor on Jan 3, 2007 14:20:22 GMT -6
O.K., here's where I put my two cents in. Where you stand depends on where you sit. A year ago, I would have thought the same thing as others in the forum, more GCD BS politics. Just one more case where you don't know whether to laugh, cry, or throw peanuts.
That was then. This is now.
I got elected President and Board Chairman of CLFC and I had the responsibilty to not only to lead the club, but to participate in the Division and try to do those things that are good for the Division, the belief being that what's good for the Division is also good for CLFC. To that end, I even gave Andrey one day of our protected weekend because he wanted to hold an event and at the time, I didn't think that I'd need that day. I did that in the spirit of cooperation because I beleive that it's important to cooperate and I remember the bad ol' days in the GCD. I also remember who did most of the howling when competing salles held conflicting tournaments.
Now, I have the very distinct impression that I've been lied to. It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
CLFC will continue to follow both the letter and spirit of the agreements we've made in the GDC. I still think it's important. But my willingness to support or cooperate with Skopik or Geva has been damaged and it wasn't my fault that it got that way.
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nemo
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Post by nemo on Jan 3, 2007 14:28:15 GMT -6
If you look at the Houston Cup schedule, it is what Andrey has posted for his club's training. There is currently not a Katy Blades event on this schedule. I plan to have at least one, during the USFA weekend event that I have. I just know as a supporter of fencing that this is a great idea. I have let my club know about it and encouraged them to participate.
I think you can tell that I think this is a good idea. It can also be replicated for saber and foil. I am already talking about doing this with other clubs. I'll be the first to say it has merit and value to the participants. OTOH, aren't these "NCAA" tournaments still keeping competitive fencers from attending the sanctioned tournaments they are opposite? Granted, it has been made very clear that (because they are "NCAA") they do not award letter classifications. Still, they are fencing with the HC event and not the "sanctioned event."
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Post by phincer on Jan 3, 2007 15:13:29 GMT -6
OTOH, aren't these "NCAA" tournaments still keeping competitive fencers from attending the sanctioned tournaments they are opposite? Granted, it has been made very clear that (because they are "NCAA") they do not award letter classifications. Still, they are fencing with the HC event and not the "sanctioned event." The Houston Cup tournaments do not keep fencers from attending "sanctioned" events. How could they? Fencers choose to attend any event. They decide when and where their time and money are best spent. No one is hijacking them and making them go to an HC event! Or...maybe....they are....maybe the evil ninja fencers in the unmarked black SUV's are traveling to the sanctioned events and kidnapping fencers outside and taking them to ALL and forcing them at sword point to fence!!!
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nemo
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Post by nemo on Jan 3, 2007 15:43:53 GMT -6
"keep" was not meant to equal "coerce" or "force."
I was under the impression that everything we, as a division, have gone through since Alperstein & Baumgart made their visit was to avoid having tournaments scheduled over each other.
My error.
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Post by katyblades on Jan 3, 2007 16:32:28 GMT -6
Vraptor,
Sorry you feel that way. If you notice I don't even have any Houston Cups scheduled, I just told everyone on this board what Andrey was doing. Honestly, I support it because I would not be able to fence locally without these events because I am a measly "A". Now I have several more students that are "B"s and "A"s and it gives them a place to fence. I felt that the division needed to know what was going on because Andrey is doing this for his club anyway and it gives you the opportunity to fence some of them.
These practice events have been held in this division for a long time, (Patrice Caux helped organize some), and the thought that these events will steal from a local event is ridiculous. These are set up to provide an opportunity to those who would not get to fence in these formats.
I am a club chairman and coach, and I hear all the time that these new fencers are looking for opportunities to fence. It is up to the USFA to promote USFA tournaments, so that all the members will know about these events.
I hear your frustration about dealing with facilities in terms of running your tournaments and dealing with the calendar. I am there also, and the way things are structured do not give you any leeway if something changes. That is the current structure, so to provide opportunities for his fencers Andrey offers this. I would be a fool not to take advantage of it.
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Post by katyblades on Jan 3, 2007 16:47:32 GMT -6
John,
I agree about JOs. It was competitive, but the students were cheering for each other and having fun. There was cheering across clubs, and everything was very fun.
Everyone,
I don't think these disagreements are bad, but I seem to be characterized as either always being in Mauro's or Andrey's side doing things behind the scenes on this board. I disagree with them a lot, but it is for the best interests of my fencers that when I see a good thing then I join in. I have fencers that went to the BCFA camp at my urging, and no one would say that I am best friends with Louise.
I have been through this growth on a local, sectional and national level in the past, and I know it is natural. There will continue to be new ideas that are tried such as the Houston Cup, and they may fail, but if it allows us to fence more then how does it hurt?
I do look at my not-for-profit club from a business perspective, because that is how all not-for-profits are going. I am often competing directly with for-profit groups. Even in a for-profit environment I would do things differently than some of these clubs.
The truth of the matter is that the city of Houston needs 17 - 20 active clubs with 100+ members. Right now we probably have South Houston, Alliance, Salle Mauro, BCFA and Katy Blades in no particular order. The only way this will change is more opportunities to fence and more often, period.
If you look through all the boards and my postings I don't think you will ever find a post from me that contradicts what I just posted. I would love to see it if you find it.
If you post here that I have said or did anything then please be ready to support it in the future. What you think you know is different than what you know.
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Post by schlager7 on Jan 3, 2007 19:08:11 GMT -6
Augie is a more "visible" presence than Andrey, internet-wise, but I will note the Houston Cup schedule is on the Alliance website not the Katy Blades web site. Everyone,
I don't think these disagreements are bad, but I seem to be characterized as either always being in Mauro's or Andrey's side doing things behind the scenes on this board. I disagree with them a lot, but it is for the best interests of my fencers that when I see a good thing then I join in. I have fencers that went to the BCFA camp at my urging, and no one would say that I am best friends with Louise. Just FWIW, I can honestly say I have been to enough different meetings to see Augie vote the same way as Andrey and differently from his. The same with regard to issues where Augie has voted in accord with Mauro or Louise, and completely opposite them. He has his own club and his own outlook. I trust that even when he and I disagree he sincerely believes he is voting for what he feels is the better choice of options. I, of course, reserve my right to disagree. He will vote his interests and beliefs. I will vote mine. As a wise but anonymous person once said, "I will gladly spend my last breath to fight for your right to be wrong." ;D (Some levity seemed in order about now.) I think the concern is actually when/if a given Houston Cup NCAA-motif event is organized to draw from the same pool of fencers as whatever sanctioned/exclusive event is scheduled. I think that, if the only meal on the table is "D & Under" it is silly to think A- & B-classified fencers won't look elsewhere. We have two different pools of fencers in that case. If one event is E & Under and another is D & Under, then it might start getting a bit close. I think the idea is sound, but better communication might just allay some concerns.
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