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Post by Dan Gorman on Mar 6, 2006 1:15:35 GMT -6
In light of the issues raised in the SWIFA #3 thread, I thought I'd start this one to kick a few ideas around.
First, my view is that SWIFA is a great idea with some issues in the execution. College is where a lot of people are exposed to fencing for the first time and the place where a lot of people have a real opportunity to compete. One of SWIFA's strengths is serving as an entry to the sport without the cost of USFA membership/tournaments.
Second, as far as tournament format goes, that's a symptom of the actual problems and if those are solved will be dealt with.
Third is identifying the problems SWIFA is facing.
Is there a problem? If SWIFA's stated goal is to provide intercollegiate competition for entry level fencers in an informal atmosphere, then does it fall short? There are occasional problems with formats, referees, and what-not, but isn't that really a function of the informal nature? The only way to solve those issues is to formalize the procedures which is in contradiction to this mission statement.
I don't really subscribe to this view. I'd like to see SWIFA become more than this without losing the accessibility.
My thought is that communication is definitely an issue, but not the primary problem that SWIFA has. I think SWIFA lacks a central drive as an organization. When I first got to Texas in '95, there were several schools with strong programs who took SWIFA very seriously. I don't have that same sense now.
This central drive has to come from the students at the schools involved. It probably starts with putting down exactly what SWIFA is supposed to be on paper. A clear mission statement is needed and the clubs need to start talking about the direction they want SWIFA to go. If it's going to become an organization with strong fencing that provides really preparation for Collegiate Club Nationals, the students need to be the ones to make this happen.
I for one would like that to happen.
Dan
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Post by jazz007 on Mar 6, 2006 2:21:06 GMT -6
I agree that SWIFA is a great concept, and it deserves the attention and effort of its participants and supporters.
I feel like SWIFA makes it to its goal, but not at the level of quality that it could with only a little more effort. I don't think, though, that formalizing certain aspects like format and communication would detract from the entry-to-the-sport concept. Rather, it would provide a more structured experience, while still keeping an informal feel.
The suggestions I have offered the current participants include finding space for a website, reinstating the by-laws (which do still exist), establishing consistency of the official events, and publishing contact info for member clubs. This would provide guidelines on where there is flexibility, such as allowing jeans or track pants but disallowing failing masks. Ideally it would also allow host clubs the flexibility on referees, strip management, all the other details that make tournaments run smoothly.
This still leaves room for clubs to allow the informal uniform standards, and to organize impromptu tournament fun. For example, last semester the sabre squads took a vote - one bad and one good. The first was the suggestion to deviate from the norm for the purposes of SWIFA points, and that was voted down. The second, though, resulted in a spur-of-the-day double-elimination tournament for bragging rights. It was a lot of fun!
UTFC considers SWIFA excellent preparation for our USACFC National Team, and we have always enjoyed our trips. Fence a lot, laugh a lot, meet people in your section and make friends in the fencing world. I sincerely hope that the little problems can spur good change!
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Katman
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Post by Katman on Mar 6, 2006 22:22:04 GMT -6
Stickied. Important topic.
Dan voiced a lot of the same things I've been noticing. People seem less fired-up about SWIFA. When I first began fencing we had regular SWIFA meetings, a SWIFA Rep, refs at tournaments, and we would vote on stuff. There was even a Web site.
I think that people are just going to have start caring more and step up.
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Post by Parry Nine on Mar 6, 2006 22:27:51 GMT -6
Who is qualified/interested to possibly head all this up so some structure could be reinstated?
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Post by kd5mdk on Mar 7, 2006 2:16:24 GMT -6
That's an important question.
There needs to be some sort of structure. It's just plain foolish to throw things together without any coordination and call it SWIFA. I don't see that providing a clear statement of how decisions are made and how things will be run threatens anything that SWIFA stands for. There ought to be a representative body (each club has a delegate?) that decides overall matters, and at least one person who coordinates things. Things like rules and formats should not be matters of discussion while an event is underway.
I think that the current apathy towards SWIFA is understandable as long as there's no interest in fixing these things.
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Post by LongBlade on Mar 7, 2006 17:43:22 GMT -6
I have it on good authority that there is already a movement afoot to put some organization into SWIFA, including rules for running the competitions.
I also understand that this will be announced after the last SWIFA meet of this year so as to not change things mid-stream.
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Post by LongBlade on Mar 7, 2006 21:38:39 GMT -6
Please... just wait a bit!
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Post by jazz007 on Mar 8, 2006 0:44:58 GMT -6
I trust that there's a "movement afoot" to make these changes, and I see the logic of not attempting to make them mid-stream.
I suppose the only question I'd have would be, "Are they people you know and trust?" If it's going to be a movement announced after close of the season, it'd be nice to know that it consists of people who can be expected to set things up well.
Good luck to them!
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Post by Dan Gorman on Mar 8, 2006 9:59:49 GMT -6
I don't see the point in waiting for the discussion to begin. It seems better to go forward now with the agreement that the season closes out the way it starts. Once the season closes, most of the college students will be focusing on finals, end of semester papers, and things like summer jobs/internships. The time to work this out is now when there is a bit more cushion and students from several schools can take part in this.
Dan
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Post by kd5mdk on Mar 8, 2006 11:17:44 GMT -6
Not to mention the time it takes to reach agreement is probably better found as soon as possible, not crammed into the summer when people are hard to reach. Ideally, clubs will know when they're hosting tournaments months in advance, and can make appropriate arrangements for gyms, equipment, referees etc with plenty of time. Then again, setting a schedule too far in advance of the USFA schedules could be pretty risky, as I know a lot of the top SWIFA fencers also compete in the Section Circuit and local events.
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Post by Dan Gorman on Mar 8, 2006 12:30:07 GMT -6
The more I think on this the more I think any proposals should be put out in advance of the final SWIFA in order to be discussed at SWIFA. The only reason I can see to delay the process is to stiffle input from as many sources as possible. I think one of the things that has caused SWIFA to whither in the past has been the perception of control by a few which directly leads to a loss of interest of those on the outside. The clubs have to have more of an input into the direction of SWIFA or any future changes will only last as long as the interested parties stay interested.
Dan
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arc
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Post by arc on Mar 8, 2006 15:03:44 GMT -6
I'm glad to see that there is someone wanting to increase the organizational level of SWIFA, and hopefully bring back the bylaws & charter of the original organization. I'm always a bit leery when I hear that there's a proposal being worked up in secrecy by an "unnamed cabal", and I'd share in Mr. Gorman's desire for any proposals to be made public prior to the final event in order for them to be acted upon ... that's said tongue-in-cheek, too, but generally, transparency is the best way of dealing with these matters so that any issues can be broached & resolved in advance ...
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Post by LongBlade on Mar 8, 2006 19:46:05 GMT -6
Funny you should call it an "unnamed cabal". I'd call it a bunch of kids who have the smarts to realize this thing isn't working and who care enough to try to fix it.
They may just also want to have a fully hatched plan before it's announced for discussion.
They may further have plans for Spring Break.
Cool your jets guys. It's coming.
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Post by Parry Nine on Mar 8, 2006 20:43:48 GMT -6
How about they have a short meeting after fencing on Saturday? Let everyone know that if they enjoy the SWIFA tourneys and want it to become more organized, they should hang around (order pizza and beer or something) and hash it out.
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Post by kd5mdk on Mar 8, 2006 22:08:28 GMT -6
Because when it comes to deciding things, short meeting never work. Much better to have people hash out plans over however many hours, work up a report, and submit it to public consideration. That said, the people involved ought to be open about who they are and their ideas, ideally send out a copy of their plan for people to read before it's presented.
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Post by Dan Gorman on Mar 8, 2006 23:44:39 GMT -6
This thread is to discuss aims of SWIFA, what to do to improve it, and how that should be done. If other groups want to work on the issue as well, that has no real impact on this thread. My only concern is people who say don't worry, we have the answers to all your problems. I feel that way in most parts of life.
On topic, what are SWIFA's main issues? What needs to be solved and how? People say communication, but is that the problem or a symptom? How many clubs are interested in changing SWIFA? How many clubs are willing to work? Will any changes be lasting if multiple clubs aren't involved in the process.
In my experience with SWIFA, it's cycled a few times in seriousness. When I first got to Texas, SWIFA was at a high point. I don't recall any of the organizational aspects at the time, but I believe that UT had the only club with a full-time coach in the mid-90s (Mauro was working part-time with A&M at the time). I don't think coaching has much to do with it, and unless there was someone working at SWIFAs that I completely missed, it was student run.
This continued for a few years until some of the clubs went into decline and disappeared. SWIFA stayed in a funk for a few years until Paul pulled it out and took over as commissioner. He worked hard and SWIFA made a resurgence until he became frustrated with the lack of interest from the students and pulled back. SWIFA stayed strong for another year maybe with student leadership, had a scandal (I'm unclear on the details, so don't ask me), and started coming apart at the seams. Slowly, it's reached the point it's at now.
It seems to me that the solution for SWIFA is multiple clubs taking a role in its direction (huh, wonder if anyone didn't figure my feelings on that one out). If the clubs don't have to take an interest in their future they won't. The reason it died down the first time had to do with the clubs going into a decline and SWIFA suffered for it. If the clubs stay strong, SWIFA will do best with student leadership.
I further think that the presence of Club Nationals will help keep SWIFA strong by giving the clubs something additional to work for. I hope that having Club Nationals in Texas next year gets some more of the schools to ramp up their efforts and compete. Time will tell.
Anyway this is my take on things. Your mileage may vary, but please throw some ideas out there so that everyone can kick some around at the last SWIFA.
Dan
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Post by Parry Nine on Mar 9, 2006 10:25:01 GMT -6
I'd say, with the little experience we have up here, that one of the big problems is that no one person is in charge. I think that if someone were heading things up, it would make communication better.
Start now. At the next SWIFA tourney, get the club reps together and establish "offices" or something to where specific people have responsibilities. Draw something up similar to division offices where the officers MUST be collegiate fencers, either graduate or undergraduate students. If specific people have specific duties then no one can say, "Who's in charge of this next SWIFA?" "I don't know. I think it's someone at the host club." Also, when specific people have specific duties, the buck can't be passed when something doesn't happen.
Edit: added: I'd love to be there for SWIFA 4, but I don't think it's going to happen because my first graduate recital is the following week and I can't take a weekend off. We will, however, try to get a squad or 2 to go.
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Post by Parry Nine on Mar 15, 2006 16:53:02 GMT -6
Any other ideas?
How about getting word to the leaders of the involved clubs and get them here and we can all discuss it?
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Post by LongBlade on Mar 16, 2006 13:40:46 GMT -6
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Katman
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Post by Katman on Mar 16, 2006 18:53:03 GMT -6
That's a promising-looking Web site. Who's behind it?
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Post by kd5mdk on Mar 16, 2006 19:40:54 GMT -6
I didn't recognize the names of the developers.
However, creating a website is easy. Getting everybody to agree on who decides things and how they are run is a lot harder.
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Katman
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Post by Katman on Mar 16, 2006 23:36:38 GMT -6
Granted. I didn't mean "Yay Web site, problems solved." The world would run like clockwork if that was the case.
LongBlade said that someone was already planning to step forward and begin the process of organizing something. I'd love to know who they are and I'd like to see something here or announced in the SWIFA newsgroup, which is here: swifa_fencing@yahoogroups.com
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Post by LongBlade on Mar 17, 2006 14:17:33 GMT -6
I didn't mean "Yay Web site, problems solved." The world would run like clockwork if that was the case. No, and I assure you that it wasn't taken that way either, Katman. At least now there is a website for SWIFA (even if still a Beta), which is more than they've had recently. It isn't intended that this should be a cure-all, but it is a start!
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Post by LongBlade on Mar 17, 2006 14:57:09 GMT -6
LongBlade said that someone was already planning to step forward and begin the process of organizing something. I'd love to know who they are and I'd like to see something here or announced in the SWIFA newsgroup, which is here: swifa_fencing@yahoogroups.com And that's just the point, some people are making the effort to try to put together a proposal to set up an organization and have some rules. I know who they are, and they are good kids who care about SWIFA and want to see it run better. I am not at liberty at this time to tell you who they are. These kids don't have any ability to force anything on anybody. It is merely intended to be a proposal. They are still working on it and really would like your suggestions and input. You can post your ideas here. They'll see them. It was my suggestion that they have a fully thought out plan before it was announced, published through the newsgroup, and copies sent to all the member clubs rather than throwing out something in piecemeal fashion. I also suggested that they may want to call a "congress" after that to see what everyone thought. This is NOT something to chew over in an hour-long meeting during a tournament.
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Post by schlager7 on Mar 20, 2006 23:55:40 GMT -6
I'm not deep into collegiate fencing (or collegiate anything else these last two decades plus), but if I can help in any way, just let me know.
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