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Post by schlager7 on Oct 23, 2006 10:21:32 GMT -6
My wife and I went to Austin to help out on Sunday with the Longhorn Open. The men's epee event had a 70+ pre-registration total on FRED but only about 44 showed up. I want to think men's sabre only lost about 5, going from 56 pre-registered to 51 in attendance.
The Austin Challenge SSCC had both low attendance and low pre-registration.
Heavy Metal had lighter than normal attendance as well.
I am curious about the drop-off in attendance that I have been seeing. Any thoughts?
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Post by katyblades on Oct 23, 2006 10:43:07 GMT -6
The D and Under had 65, and some of them did not fence on Sunday after a long day Saturday. The saber had a good turnout, but from our division's perspective it is hard to have the first tournaments your students go to be road trips. USFA tournaments are hard enough, but to go to a different city and fence in your very first tournament is a lot to ask a teenager. I was fortunate enough to have two brand new epeeists and three new women's saber fencers, but I have the potential for many more.
THEY SAW HOW MANY WERE PRE-REGISTERED IN EVENTS THAT INTERESTED THEM, AND SIGNED UP. They saw D and under epee, saber and women's saber and liked the idea of fencing.
I do have questions about the Battle of the Bayou. My pre-registration has been received but my name has not been added to the list. I don't know the reason behind that, but I was planning to be there if there was a decent turnout.
We still don't have enough development tournaments in the area that are USFA tournaments, (D and Under Epee, saber, foil and women's events), so we don't have the growing base as a division. That helped hurt the Heavy Metal numbers. You don't want to send a student before they are ready to a competition, they have to want to go.
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Post by DavidSierra on Oct 23, 2006 11:38:22 GMT -6
Augie... Any chance you'll be able to bring up those three women's sabre fencers to Dallas for the "BigD" SSCC in a couple of weeks? The sabre girls really want to try to have another big event! And things will run very very smoothly - they'll not be getting back late.
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Post by schlager7 on Oct 23, 2006 12:26:11 GMT -6
We still don't have enough development tournaments in the area that are USFA tournaments, (D and Under Epee, saber, foil and women's events), so we don't have the growing base as a division. That helped hurt the Heavy Metal numbers. You don't want to send a student before they are ready to a competition, they have to want to go. It looks like a fair amount of tournaments for newer/lower-classified fencers coming up. True, Battle on the Bayou is largely an open event as is Gobbler's Revenge, but Sword of Troy is E & Under foil and epee. We have an RYC in a few weeks. The Naomi Abbott will be a U-only/women's only tournament. I think Louise's November tournament is a novice, non-sanctioned (as in no letters so the heavy-hitters won't be there) event . Andrey is running a cadet/junior tournament just before the new year, although I grant you, that will likely have some tough competition in it. Hopefully, this will provide some opportunities for those just getting into the tournament side of fencing.
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Post by katyblades on Oct 23, 2006 20:51:53 GMT -6
David,
I don't tell anybody not to fence anywhere, but I do tell all my students about tournaments that are available. I have already heard that big "D" is a 4 1/2 to 5 hour trip for us in Katy, and the initial results are not that good yet. These girls were not all that excited about the Longhorn either until the last minute, so anything can happen.
As a coach I try to explain opportunities and let the students have all the facts. I don't tell my students they have to go here or there, or not to go here or there. The tournament has to have enough people to excite them, (a pool). I have tried to explain that the difference between 7 and 14 is one DE bout. The difference between 14 and 28 is on DE bout. The difference betwee 28 and 56 is one DE bout. What you are looking for when you are just beginning is getting to fence and not hurt, within an easy travel distance.
I don't really have many foil fencers, so developmental foil tournaments are not of much interest. I see some developmental epee, but no developmental saber in the GCD. I will have to do this outside the USFA.
I don't know about developmental saber tournaments, but I know that the epee developmental tournament was excellent. It was priceless in the top 8 seeing Chase hook up against a UT lefty that must have been 6'4" or better, and he was laughing when he saw who he had to fence. I was watching all the refs and coaches watch from around the room, and he kept checking his weapon. I showed the fencer after the bout was over why he could not hit by being in that position, and why Chase just waited until he was in that position and hit him. I think he learned something.
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Post by DavidSierra on Oct 24, 2006 9:35:25 GMT -6
My wife and I went to Austin to help out on Sunday with the Longhorn Open. The men's epee event had a 70+ pre-registration total on FRED but only about 44 showed up. I want to think men's sabre only lost about 5, going from 56 pre-registered to 51 in attendance. The Austin Challenge SSCC had both low attendance and low pre-registration. Heavy Metal had lighter than normal attendance as well. I am curious about the drop-off in attendance that I have been seeing. Any thoughts? Actually, I think in many cases, its a self-fullfilling prophecy. People decide that they're going to "wait and see" how the registrations turn out. Then, they decide to "wait a little longer" and maybe they'll "get excited about it at the last minute." So, meanwhile, no one signs up, because they're all waiting for everyone else to. I've seen this from two sides, both as a coach and a tournament organizer. As a coach, I have a number of concerns. I want my fencers to attend an event with strong participation, yes, but its just as important to me that they attend a tournament where things are done PROPERLY. Good referees, good bout committee, things run smoothly. And, I do believe it is one of the roles that I can play as a coach is to help them select the best tournaments to attend. Why wouldn't a coach do this? You give them advice on training, nutrition, equipment, etc. Why is it verboten to tell them "you know, that tournament is going to be run poorly, and its not worth your time to go, but that tournament is going to be run very well, and you should attend that one, even if its a longer drive." Now, I'm not talking about trying to use one's students for political influence, and forbidding them to attend a tournament beacuse you have a problem with the organizer, but, helping them select good events to go to. Seriously, I think we as coaches can and SHOULD play this role. Why should we continue to put up with poorly run events? Yes, things are getting better, but there are still some tournament hosts that really need a swift kick in the you-know-what, because, they simply don't get a good tournament staff to run things and then the tournament is subject to all sorts of problems? Heck, >I< don't want to be at a venue in another city until 9pm and then have a 4 hour drive home! If that same tournament could be run a little better, without delays, and everyone gets home 3 hours earlier... how is that a bad thing? Am I the only coach that feels this way? This is part of the reason I've made it a priority for my students to attend SSCC events (and one of the reasons I have spent so much time, effort and energy on the bloody organization!) - even if its a little smaller turnout because other people are, in my opinion, consumers with some badly placed priorities, I >KNOW< they'll face good opponents, without delays, with proper refereeing, in a good enviornment and allow them to concentrate on their >fencing< instead of "how long until I can get home." Athletes bring enough of their own psychological and mental difficulties to the table without having to have any imposed upon them by the tournament itself! So tell me, is this a BAD thing?
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Post by fox on Oct 24, 2006 11:31:40 GMT -6
Actually, I think in many cases, its a self-fullfilling prophecy. People decide that they're going to "wait and see" how the registrations turn out. Then, they decide to "wait a little longer" and maybe they'll "get excited about it at the last minute." So, meanwhile, no one signs up, because they're all waiting for everyone else to. Given what I have experienced of human nature, this rings terribly true! Nobody wants to be first!
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Post by katyblades on Oct 25, 2006 10:02:56 GMT -6
David,
You hit on some very important points.
1. How many bouts and what the type of competition is it? Another key component to this is what time is check-in, and when will it actually start. The Longhorn D and Under epee started within the 30 minutes posting, but then the pools had to be reseeded and pulled because a fencer got sick. Pools were finished by double stripping, and the fencers were done with a 64/65 fencer tournament by approximately 8 for a tournament with check-in at 3pm. That is 5 hours. Well done. The Open Men's epee on Sunday was also over around 2 pm.
2. What time does the event start? Events that begin at 8 am close of registration limit participants, because they have to drive in from out of town and stay in a hotel. Even then it is not fun. A large event can be finished in 5 hours or so, (see above). You have to look at who you are trying to attract and schedule events accordingly.
3. What events are being held? Developing fencers may want the opportunity to fence multiple events to entice them to travel. Why did the Oct. NAC have Cadet, Div. II and Div. III? Men's/Women's saber and D and Under saber at the Longhorn? Men's/Women's epee and D and under epee? By holding the right type of events for the market they had a great turnout.
4. Staff and referees? Saber and foil are dependent on good referees, and epee is less dependent. What is just as important is the ability to turn around pools/DEs and eliminate dead time. Time between the finish of pools to DEs beginning is important.
What also helped at the Longhorn, and more and more on the local level is looking at what pools can be doubled early and getting those done. Gary, Jerry and others were looking for ways to eliminate dead time waiting for one strip or DE to finish.
The SSCC I ran in Houston I was told be Vitaly and others that they wanted it completed quickly, because until then all the SSCCs in recent memory had finished late that night. I trained staff, and in their first tournament the Men's foil was completed by 3 pm. We don't necessarily need to hire the same staff, we may just need to train the new ones coming in.
The Texas State and UT staff did a great job at recent tournaments I was at. I heard the Aggies did great at the Heavy Metal. These are college young people, and they seem to be doing it well.
One area that you did not hit on was where does that tournament fit in the fencer's development cycle? SSCCs and the travel and expense associated are for highly advanced late first year minimum. The SSCC should be 6th or 8th tournament at the least. What we have to do is find out how to get in tournaments 1 - 5.
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Post by DavidSierra on Oct 25, 2006 10:38:57 GMT -6
2. What time does the event start? Events that begin at 8 am close of registration limit participants, because they have to drive in from out of town and stay in a hotel. Even then it is not fun. A large event can be finished in 5 hours or so, (see above). You have to look at who you are trying to attract and schedule events accordingly. 3. What events are being held? Developing fencers may want the opportunity to fence multiple events to entice them to travel. Why did the Oct. NAC have Cadet, Div. II and Div. III? Men's/Women's saber and D and Under saber at the Longhorn? Men's/Women's epee and D and under epee? By holding the right type of events for the market they had a great turnout. Two excellent points. Definitely something I'll bear in mind in the future, when scheduling events. *awkward silence* Now, I wasn't there for the entire weekend, but, what I saw on Sunday afternoon was... less than perfect. This is a touchy subject, and going into those kind of details on a public forum is inappropriate. BUT, for example, DivIII Sabre started around 5:45. That's a bit late, and is going to cause us to rethink next year staying for that event. Now, again, I don't want to take anything away from the college students, and I think they're doing a good job, but see the below comment for more. Well, yes, but... they need to be trained fully, completely, and properly, and have adequate redundancy and backups. Okay, this is how I think of it. DT (Directore Technique) work is not easy. It really isn't something you can train someone for in an afternoon. It requires mentoring, on the job training and experience. When you think about it, its just as complicated and specialized a job as refereeing is. And just like with refereeing, there are time-tested protocols that work well. The national tournament staff is looking at ways to certify DT people in a manner similar to armourers and referees, and I think this is a good, good thing. Would you have an entire newly minted class of referees to work a tournament? Even if you were heavily dependant upon them, wouldn't you try to bring in a couple of top guys? Same thing with the DT stuff. Yes, train your people, give them the idea of how things go, but bring in a couple of highly experienced ones who can help them learn and mentor them. Someone who knows WHY USFA memberships are important. Someone who knows how to do proper pool balancing, and knows how to run a table efficently. Someone who is experienced at working with the head referee you've hired, and the two of them have a system that works. Someone who has seen that crazy situation that is going to pop up, and knows how to deal with it, and take steps to prevent it from happening. I agree with you on your first question. Its important to consider. But, I don't think that SSCC events are THAT out of the question for a less developed student - particularly in some of the weapons (Women's Foil and Sabre come to mind).
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Post by kd5mdk on Oct 25, 2006 11:25:38 GMT -6
Sadly, slightly discounting the Longhorn, just about all women's sabre tournaments in the SWS have been as developmental as anything.
The Longhorn could have been much better scheduled, but given the strange flucuations in registrations (ie, the Div III events exploding and the Open Epee crashing) it's hard to have improved on how they set their times. Everything could have started much earlier if they'd known how Men's Epee would be like, and putting all three sabre events on one day made things easier to arrive for and less hotel costs, but really strained referee availability and fencers in multiple events.
Of course, part of the real resolution would be if everybody showed up when they said they would, tournament organizers could plan much more effectively.
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kb
Squire
Posts: 261
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Post by kb on Oct 25, 2006 14:44:58 GMT -6
My wife and I went to Austin to help out on Sunday with the Longhorn Open. The men's epee event had a 70+ pre-registration total on FRED but only about 44 showed up. I want to think men's sabre only lost about 5, going from 56 pre-registered to 51 in attendance. The Austin Challenge SSCC had both low attendance and low pre-registration. Heavy Metal had lighter than normal attendance as well. I am curious about the drop-off in attendance that I have been seeing. Any thoughts? Could it be that we now have too many good choices when you throw in the NACs? I can't think of a badly run tournament in the last two years-everyone does a nice job of getting things overwith in a timely manner. As for the Longhorn, on Sunday our fencer wasn't feeling 100%, so we opted to go home the second day. He probably shouldn't have fenced on Saturday,but what the heck. The SSCC Austin Challenge occurred the weekend before NAC A, and The Big D will be the weekend before NAC B, so we won't be making either one of those. That's major traveling two weekends in a row and we can't do that with a high school student. The UT rec center is just about the nicest venue around, and Austin and San Marcos are where the apres-fence is best.
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Post by katyblades on Oct 27, 2006 11:43:30 GMT -6
David,
I was pretty much done by the time the Men's and D and under saber began, so I did not see the timing issues you discussed. On Saturday all the events I saw began on time or close to it and DEs started shortly after the end of pools(epee and foil). That also happened Sunday morning. The issue may be that as saber events get larger, the structure of running a saber event needs to be fine tuned. It was not that long ago that a women's event with 18 fencers was considered a large event, so having events 2 hours apart with 3 events back-to-back-to-back would not be a big issue. Now more care will need to be addressed in timing in these types of events.
Kathy brings up a good point about travel times. Having high school/teenagers travel two weeks in a row is not always the best for the family. This could have hurt the attendance at the first SSCC and may hurt the Dallas attendance. Many of them would not get back until late Sunday evening, and may have to leave Thursday afternoon to get to NM.
I agree that women's foil and women's saber are areas that more beginning women can participate in these larger tournaments with some success. The more difficult thing is getting them understanding right-of-way nuances.
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Post by DavidSierra on Oct 29, 2006 21:47:31 GMT -6
The issue about traveling is a very very good one. I'll make sure we address it next year when putting the schedule together for the SSCC's. Thanks for the input.
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Post by kd5mdk on Oct 30, 2006 6:45:42 GMT -6
Tournament scheduling (on the calendar) and tournament scheduling (within the weekend) will be a problem forever, I fear. It's certainly true that going from an out of town tournament one weekend to a NAC, or vice versa, is not a lot of fun, but then what qualifies as an out of town tournament is different for everyone, of course.
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