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Post by bobb1211999 on Oct 14, 2005 11:40:45 GMT -6
If Fencer X is retreating to avoid touch, and Fencer Y does a feleche and misses, then proceeds to make a right turn off of the strip. Would this be a card for going off strip to avoid a touch(note: this was done about 10-12 times in a row, and Fencer Y never went past Fencer X). If not what would be considered as going off strip to avoid a touch.
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Post by DavidSierra on Oct 14, 2005 21:01:18 GMT -6
An excellent question. As with most of the infractions, which exist to prevent one fencer from gaining an advantage and either scoring a touch or avoiding a touch by utlizing "non-standard actions", this one is at the same time both simple and difficult to call.
At the very least, Fencer Y is going to loose ground. Note, that after Fencer Y goes of strip, Fencer X gains a meter from his position at the moment Fencer Y goes off strip. All too often, referees flub this one up, find the center ground between the fencers, and then advance that at meter. This is incorrect, and the fencer who went off strip is already being penalized with the loss of ground.
The question of "is it leaving the strip to avoid a touch" is almost as complex as the tricky epee call of "corps-a-corps to avoid a touch" or "jostling." It is entirely up to the judgement of the referee. Its also extremely hard to second guess that kind of decision, without some sort of video playback. However, there are a couple of "standards" that the referee can use to help determine.
Bear in mind, that an opponent can be scored UPON immediately after leaving the strip. So, a referee should not call 'halt' too soon, and should allow an immediate, direct riposte (or counterattack). If this is not the case, an important question to ask is, "Had the fencer not crossed the lateral boundary of the strip, would his opponent been in range to score a touch upon him?"
The floor is open for discussion...
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Post by Dan Gorman on Oct 15, 2005 16:56:24 GMT -6
I think that if the attack misses (not just off-target), the counter-attack will be valid as long as it begins before Y goes off strip. Am I wrong?
Dan
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Post by DavidSierra on Oct 16, 2005 12:59:46 GMT -6
That's the interpretation that I was taught and have always worked under the assumption of!
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Post by Parry Nine on Oct 16, 2005 15:13:01 GMT -6
I'd agree, but if the fencer going off the strip keeps trying to go off before their opponent can riposte, I'd card him.
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Post by bobb1211999 on Oct 16, 2005 18:08:02 GMT -6
That is what kept happening to me. The person did it so fast that there was no time to riposte. It was a beginner tournament though.
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Post by Parry Nine on Oct 17, 2005 14:41:39 GMT -6
Ahh...a beginner tourney. That explains much. That would be a little harder to call.
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bobb121
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[ss:Antique Foil]
Posts: 47
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Post by bobb121 on Oct 17, 2005 15:35:15 GMT -6
What would ya'll do if it was a repeated offense (it is done 10 or more times) And what should the fencer do if nothing is being done?
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Post by Parry Nine on Oct 17, 2005 19:50:21 GMT -6
As a ref, warn them (verbally if they're a beginner at a small local tourney) then start carding them.
As a fencer, dunno...
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Post by LongBlade on Oct 17, 2005 20:42:24 GMT -6
When directing... err... refereeing kids (Sorry, showing my age again), I am very hesitant to card, absent brutality or endangering someone. Warnings come freely with kids, however, so they will learn!
That said, it comes down to a question of going off strip to avoid a touch as opposed to going off strip to avoid a corps-a-corps.
Fencer X gains a meter, either way. A riposte is allowed. And warn extensively for beginners, and card experenced fencers after the first warning.
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Post by Parry Nine on Oct 19, 2005 8:00:54 GMT -6
Yes, Longblade. That's what I was trying to say, but couldn't formulate into words.
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hpfencing
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I am the lead coach at High Plains Fencing and Fannin Middle School in Amarillo and also a rated ref
Posts: 30
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Post by hpfencing on Oct 19, 2005 14:08:39 GMT -6
I'd say yes, but I don't hand out that card unless the other fencer attempts a counter attack or some action. It's not avoiding a touch if the otehr fencer is not trying to land one.
thoughts? am I right in this regard? It's the way I have handled it many times in the past.
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