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Post by schlager7 on Dec 21, 2005 8:36:39 GMT -6
This is just an idle curiosity and likely just represents an old school/new wave division, but when I referee, I make a point of announcing la belle. I have noticed that some of my colleagues do and others do not.
When you are refereeing, do you announce "la belle" at 4-4 in pool bouts or at 14-14 (9-9 in veterans' events) in DEs?
I'll go first and state that I do. Of course, I was also taught my parry/garde positions as prime, seconde, tierce, quarte, quinte, sixte, septime and octave (as opposed to 1st, 2nd, etc).
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Post by DavidSierra on Dec 21, 2005 9:35:10 GMT -6
I had an interesting discussion with Andy Shaw regarding this a number of years ago. For those who don't know who Andy is, he is the USFA Historian (check out his articles in American Fencing). He's also one probably one of the top referee's who ever worked in the USA, and considered something of an authority on the ins and outs of refeeeing. He has retired from active refereeing, and owns a salle in Shreveport now, and is not without his faults, but I think we can take his word on this.
"La belle" is an old, very very old, convention for announing the "match point" and one that predates electric scoring. The full term is "la belle touch" or literally, "the beautiful touch," connoting, "the next touch will decide the bout, so it must be beautiful and others will be thrown out." This is inappropriate, in the modern context of our sport, for a number of reasons, but which boil down to this: If an action is good enough to score a point at any other stage of the bout, then it is good enough to score the final touch.
So when you announce, "la belle!" at the score of 4-4 (or 14-14 or 9-9) then you are saying that you are going to throw out touches that aren't "beautiful."
A good habit to break yourself of!
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Post by JEC on Dec 21, 2005 9:51:05 GMT -6
I would argue that it has evolved to a salute of respect to the opponent as we were so evenly matched.
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Post by Dan Gorman on Dec 21, 2005 12:15:18 GMT -6
Sometimes it denotes a hard fought bout that both fencers deserve to win. Sometimes it denotes something a little different.
Dan
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Post by fox on Dec 21, 2005 13:21:40 GMT -6
I'm not that partisan on the issue, but I am that old. Calling out "la belle" is pure reflex for me.
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Post by saberbobcat on Dec 22, 2005 1:08:03 GMT -6
Ooops! I have always used it to indicate that the score was tied at that point in time.
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Katman
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Post by Katman on Dec 22, 2005 10:44:51 GMT -6
I used to announce it all the time when reffing an informal club bout at UH. Soon as I started reffing at tournaments I dropped it right away. I knew what it meant and I didn't think it was appropriate to tell the fencers what I thought was beautiful and what wasn't. That being said, I also thought it was sort of useless. The fencers know the score. So does most of the audience. Edit: As a fencer, I'll still salute at 14-14 or 4-4.
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Post by DavidSierra on Dec 22, 2005 13:21:49 GMT -6
That being said, I also thought it was sort of useless. The fencers know the score. So does most of the audience. Its entirely appropriate though, and in fact, encouraged, to announce the score. After every touch. Even when you're lucky enough to have one of those nice FIE scoring machines with the score built in.
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Katman
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Post by Katman on Dec 22, 2005 18:12:28 GMT -6
Yah, 's what I meant. Have some rep on me though.
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Post by LongBlade on Dec 23, 2005 17:09:51 GMT -6
As a referee, you should always announce the score after every touch. This informs the fencers how the score was awarded, and keeps the scorekeeper on the same page as the referee. Anyone can make a mistake, and this insures that any error is caught before the bout proceeds.
Acknowledging, that the original connotation of the term “la belle touche” was that anything not pretty enough to be scored without hesitation would be thrown out, it also served another purpose; to put both fencers on notice that the next touch was the final touch. Similarly, back when we were still called “directors”, it was not at all uncommon to hear the term “petite la belle”. It was merely the accepted way to announce that the score was tied at three all.
Although the term itself is now somewhat of an anachronism, it is entirely appropriate for use in the modern sport. After all, what is wrong with keeping some of the historical origins of the sport alive? We still use the term “love” in tennis, don’t we?
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nemo
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Post by nemo on Dec 24, 2005 12:44:13 GMT -6
I can't say that I do. Certainly, if I'm fencing and my ref calls out la belle and my opponent salutes, I'll follow suit.
Of course I'm also figuring this means it is important to my ref and I should act prudently.
I understand the history and all, but to me it's just a game.
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Post by saberbobcat on Dec 24, 2005 14:47:16 GMT -6
Excellent responses, Nemo and Longblade. Fun and historical origins are important to keep alive. ;D
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Post by Aldo N on Dec 24, 2005 15:18:09 GMT -6
I'm old school and, like schlager7, was taught to announce la belle. I'm certain if I still directed a bout I'd announce it out of sheer reflex.
Besides which, for myself, the fact that two competitors have pulled up to a tie at match point usually (I know, Dan, not always) means they are well matched. Truly the deciding touch will be a beautiful touche.
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Post by Dan Gorman on Dec 25, 2005 9:36:38 GMT -6
I'm not saying they're not well-matched. I'm saying it often isn't pretty. Dan
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Post by Aldo N on Dec 25, 2005 10:41:35 GMT -6
It can also mean, when we reach la belle in a hurry, that we have two fencers who know how to charge, but not defend worth beans. I've seen a few. They may be well-matched, but that is not necessarily a good thing.
Still, I have a warm spot in my heart for announcing la belle. It usually denotes either a tightly contested, nip and tuck match, or an early lead by one followed by a climb back by the other. Both are usually exciting to watch.
To announce la belle at 4-4, 9-9 or, especially 14-14, just serves to underline the moment.
Besides, it's tradition and I confess to that sin.
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