bobb121
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[ss:Antique Foil]
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Post by bobb121 on Aug 5, 2006 22:00:11 GMT -6
If possible, I would like a referee with a rating of 5 or higher to reply. At my fencing club, we are having a disagreement on when the fleche ends, and when the other fencer refceives priority.
Thanks a bunch
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Post by katyblades on Aug 6, 2006 5:04:06 GMT -6
The attacks are laid out in the rule book and that were explained to me when I took the test from George Kolombatavich. The attack ends as soon as the front foot lands or you pull your arm back in the action. These are the attacks in footwork:
Lunge Advance Advance Lunge Fleche Several advanced footwork which are variations of the advance lunge double advance advance fleche
Once your front foot hits the ground, the attack is over. Also if you pull your arm back instead of going towards your attacking and threatening target area, you lose your attack.
The next thing is what is your opponent doing? If your opponent extends their arm and retreats and you do a lunge and then reattack, they can steal time if their extension is in place before your second offensive action.
In foil, the front foot hitting the floor on the fleche would end the attack, or passing your opponent's front shoulder with yours. I can't conceive of a way to continue your extension toward your opponent and then pass them and still be extending in the same line after that to hit.
The next thing that would stop priority of a fleche would be meeting of blades by a proper beat or parry. A proper beat or parry would remove the point from target area, however slightly. In the real world, I have often demonstrated that the slightest beat in foil, saber and epee removes the point. That is why I love the beat to the hand in epee. It is just a right-of-way move.
I don't know what my rating is now, but I was a 3 in foil when I quit because I could not stand any more. I directed the top 16 at JOs in Dallas, and was told by everyone I did fine. Bill Oliver told me early on to work on expanding my hand signals, and I was able to do that as the pool went on.
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Post by Parry Nine on Aug 6, 2006 14:22:40 GMT -6
Yep...
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Post by Dan Gorman on Aug 6, 2006 22:29:31 GMT -6
From t.56 of the current rulebook:
The convention that the attack ends when the front foot hits the ground is from the saber portion of the rules and is commonly applied with little debate in foil, however, it isn't the rule. Additionally, in regards to the fleche it should end with the landing of the back foot in the event of a compound attack. Again, that's saber (although from the days when saber fencers could still fleche).
The way foil is called these days is that, with a lunge, your attack is called finished when the front foot lands. If you fleche, the attack continues with priority unless a counter-attack lands a tempo head of the finish. That is, if the fleching fencer takes an additional step or hand action following being hit, the attack was disrupted. Not sure how clear that was, but it's not as easy as when the foot lands.
Dan
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bobb121
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[ss:Antique Foil]
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Post by bobb121 on Aug 7, 2006 19:50:42 GMT -6
Dan, could you give me a text book version of this. If fencer X fleches, when and in which tempo would fencer y have to lunge to get the touch.
Thanks
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Post by katyblades on Aug 7, 2006 22:44:25 GMT -6
I disagree with Dan there. You will notice in the rules he is quoting that it talks always about how to obtain the attack, (ie. begin extending the arm before the foot leaves the ground for the lunge or fleche). It does not discuss when the attack ends. When I fenced in the Vets, I had a wonderful director from Canada that also directed at the NCAAs. In the finals, I was able to utilize the ability to make my opponents miss on the fleche and then gain time with an attack. I did not use a lunge because of the risk, I just step back into their failed attack with my attack.
This convention of when the attack ends is from the early 80s, and saber adopted the foil conventions and not the other way around. Actually sabers attacks were often slower and more subtle or much more faster. When I began fencing again after the 8 year layoff I commented immediately that saber was being called as the traditional foil directing. I remember the biggest debate in the section was with Chris Trammell from New Orleans and Howard Williams, Scott Clark and Paul Anderson. I actually had to call George K. and Andy Shaw to discuss and look at videos to be able to call it.
Scott, Howard or Paul would begin very slow deliberate fleches that lasted a very long time. They were always direct and well executed. Chris would cut into the fleche multiple times, (and hit), but Scott, Howard and Paul would not flinch and finish the cut before the front foot hit the ground. There was no time to gain, and therefore they scored on the direct attack. Now with the new saber timings, this would not work, but it does not mean that the rule has changed. The end of their attack was considered when the front foot landed, and George explained that it was the same as in foil. That actually was one of the questions I missed on my director's test in 1982, and there was only one general question test then. It was when did the attack end, with a multiple choice scenario with the fleche being one of them. George is the current FOC rep, and I actually talked to him about this at the last two NCAAs and at the NAC.
Chris, you would not be able to initiate the lunge until after the fleche failed. If you lunged too quickly, before it was clear to the director that their attack had failed and you picked up your front foot too soon, then it would be considered a counterattack. Conversely, if you wait too long then your action is a counterattack because they have begun the fleche again before you can gain the time. Remember, it is your responsibility to show the director the timing. What would be better is to retreat and and and clearly demonstrate the action is over before initiating your offensive action. Even better is parrying and either hitting them on the chest or on the back when they pass you. Stepping into the remise of the attack after the fleche ends would also be a better way of doing things.
My first bout ever with Robert Reed was a foil bout and I won 5 to (-3) because he would do these long attacks that I parried, and then I would execute my riposte while he was turning his back. First point warning, my touch. Second point my touch and he lost a touch. I thought I should have won 5 to (-4), but the director told me not to get greedy. I know I will never do it again, because that was when the scoring was opposite and it was in the pool sheet Skopik (-3) Reed 5.
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Post by katyblades on Aug 7, 2006 22:49:55 GMT -6
I forgot to mention that the back foot in the fleche is considered the beginning of the attack, and not the end. When the fleche is taught, a fencer leans forward and puts their weight on the front leg. The actual fleche is initiated when the back foot leaves the ground. The back foot actually becomes the front foot in that case for discussion. The fencer would need to land the back foot, then the front foot and reset to fleche again properly.
The back foot is the leading foot in the fleche, and when that lands that is considered the front foot.
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Post by Oliver Diaz on Aug 8, 2006 22:51:48 GMT -6
I've never seen it directed any other way than Dan's described. Your running attack is really a preparation, so as long as you finish with your hand in time, you get the attack. If you finish late (as Dan described) or stop/pull back, you open yourself up to a tempo attack.
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Post by Dan Gorman on Aug 9, 2006 22:44:50 GMT -6
I got lost in a lot of what Augie posted, but the comment regarding the rules is off-base. There is no rule in foil as to when the attack ends, only convention. This is why I didn't quote that rule. There is a rule in saber when the attack ends and this rule is used by many referees in foil (t.75 of the rules).
I mistakenly said the back foot landing ended the compound attack in saber with the fleche. Augie was correct in stating it is the front foot. Regardless, that has been taken out of the rules as saber fencers can no longer fleche. Any foilist who continues to move forward after the initial fleche will retain priority unless his or her opponent hits him or her a full fencing time before the final action.
Dan
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bobb121
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[ss:Antique Foil]
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Post by bobb121 on Aug 10, 2006 13:48:15 GMT -6
This is what people in the LP forum are saying:
In a properly executed fleche the point should land before (or at the latest with) the back foot landing. Say you're right handed. Just after the fleche your left foot is now in front of your right foot. If your fleche missed and you wish to continue moving forward for a remise or redoublement you will need to move your right foot forward. However, your legs have started in a crossed position after the failed fleche so you are therefore technically now in preparation. Therefore your opponent has the right to hit you without taking your blade even if your arm is straight and you started the remise/redoublement action first.
Can anyone comment on this.
Thanks, Chris
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Post by katyblades on Aug 10, 2006 22:32:34 GMT -6
Chris,
That is what I described. You must hit before the foot hits the ground. In the case of a right hander, it is the left foot. I have not fenced foil often, but I have had it called that way in the Arlington NAC top16, by Gary V. at the Longhorn, and in the three Vet Nationals. I specifically had it called against me in my bout in the 16 against Eric Dew because my knee brace slipped and I had to put my foot down too quickly. That happened twice and was the difference in a 10-8 or 10-9 bout.
I also had it called for me by the Canadian director who directed at the NCAAs. He was awesome, and you could just relax and fence. Gary V. also directed in the top 16 for me and Kevin Nadeu at the Longhorn, and I would retreat and make him miss short on the fleche and then regain the attack. I must have scored 10 touches in the 15 touch bout that way.
If you continue to look at the section Dan pointed out, you will see that any move that has the legs crossing over each other continously is a preparation, and therefore open to a simple attack.
When you land on a fleche, and your front leg moves forward to reinstate its original position of your en garde position, then you have prepared and are open to a simple attack. There is no blade contact necessary. Look at judging a fencing phrase, section 8.
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Post by Dan Gorman on Aug 11, 2006 0:16:45 GMT -6
Augie:
A compound attack (any attack executed in several movements (t.8 of the rules)) is not open to a simple attack, it's open to a stop hit. For the stop hit to be valid, it "must precede the conclusion of the attack by an interval of fencing time; that is to say that the stop hit must arrive before the attacker has begun the final movement of the attack" (t.59 of the rules).
If you are referring to t.8 of the rules when you say section 8, that is part of a glossary. In paragraph (c)3 of t.8, the rules reference a stop hit and refer to t.59 (foil -- quoted above) and t.79 (saber -- although I think it should refer to t.77 which actually refers to stop hits).
Chris:
I'm not familiar with the LP forum, but the rule described is an artifact from saber before the ban on the forward crossover. Ask a historian for a circa 1994 rulebook and check it. It is sometimes applied in foil, but there is no rule. Once a foilist begins to move forward his or her attack will continue until a touch is made or someone leaves the strip. To steal time you have to hit before the final action of the attack begins.
Also, the rules make no reference that I can find to the crossed legs being a preparation technically or otherwise. Now I agree that a coach should teach that a simple attack executed with a fleche should land before the rear foot and that a compound attack executed with the fleche should land before the front foot lands again. The rules, however, don't make this distinction. Generally speaking, once you are moving forward and the arm has made an initial extension anything that follows is a preparation. To steal time from this a stop hit has to land before the final action of the attack begins. Them's the rules, love 'em or hate 'em.
Dan
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Post by DavidSierra on Aug 11, 2006 9:14:11 GMT -6
Okay, as the moderator of this subgroup, I'm going to weigh in, allow everyone one more comment (and set the ground rules for doing so) and then close this thread. Everyone is repeating themselves, and not really contributing anything new.
Both Dan and Augie are correct in the substance of what is behind their thoughts. The rule about the attack ending when the front foot lands is a sabre rule, and specific to sabre. There is NO similar rule in foil. This is one of the basic differences between foil and sabre right-of-way. It is a fundemental distinction that referees who work both weapons MUST be able to make between the weapons.
However, it IS possible to "pull distance" (for lack of a better term) and gain priority in foil. It is more difficult to do, and certainly harder to see, but it is far from impossible. One of the innovations of the highly successful American women foil fencers in the 90's (and their coach) was to adapt this concept from sabre, and use it in foil. Its now used across the spectrum. If you want an excellent view of it, watch Bucky Leach's fencers (past or present). It is a different move all together from a stop hit - more along the lines of forcing an opponent to begin an obvious footwork preparation and take advantage of that.
Similarly, in foil, a continuous attack moving down the strip, to which the opponent responds to in a manner which says "I am threatened by this" IS an attack. If however, the opponent maintains control of the distance, and uses that to create an opening to exploit, he may be able to "steal" ROW by executing a properly composed attack.
Now, with respect to this specific action, when does the attack end in a fleche, the answer is 'it depends' (of course!). One has to take into consideration both fencers actions, and determine what their actions are. Sometimes the attack ends at the end of the fleche. Sometimes it can continue. Its important to pay attention to the subtle details.
The ground rules for further comments: If you wish to cite a rule, please give the exact number from the current rulebook, and quote the text of the rule. For the duration of this thread, any discussions of rules that do not include this will be deleted along with any accompanying remarks. Please also refrain from further Argumentum ad Verecundiam (Appeal to Authority) remarks for the duration of this thread (they will be deleted, along with any accompanying remarks).
Thank you all for your discussions and attention.
The Moderator
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Post by katyblades on Aug 12, 2006 9:56:44 GMT -6
Maybe that is where I got pulling the distance, because I fenced in Bucky's club for about 4 weeks in 1987 during the summer when I was there for work. I also learned pulling the time from Michael Marx, who did it very well, and from Clarence McCraw, Tim Glass and Al Peters in Houston.
I will not quote a rule but cite a situation. If in epee, (no right-of-way), fencer A fleches and fencer B retreats. Fencer A's lead foot hits the ground completely off the strip BEFORE they hit. Fencer A is in position to touch in all other aspects such as being in front of their opponent with no halt called. Does a director allow the touch? In the same situation, if Fencer A hits while their foot is still in the air would the director allow the touch?
If the same situation was in foil, Fencer A fleches and fencer B retreats, and Fencer A's lead foot hits the groung completely off the strip BEFORE they hit would the director allow the touch? In the same situation, if Fencer A hits while their foot is still in the air would the director allow the touch?
Why? It is because the attack ended not with the fencers foot in the air but once it touches the ground.
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Post by katyblades on Aug 12, 2006 15:30:01 GMT -6
Dan,
I linked from the USFA website, so the rules are from Sept. 2005. On page 20 of the Foil Section, Conventions of Fencing. In Section t.56 you had qouted the first four sections of what constituted an attack. Sections 4 - 8 follow this statement, "To judge the priority of an attack when analysing (sp) the fencing phrase, it should be noted that:"
"8. Continous steps forward, with the legs crossing one another, constitute a preparation and on this preparation any simple attack has priority."
This is in the part after the hand signals, and when it directly talks about the weapons. Foil is the first weapon addressed in this section.
I agree with you that we should follow the rules, but I don't see where it can be any more clear. If I am missing something I definitely am open to an explanation.
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bobb121
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[ss:Antique Foil]
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Post by bobb121 on Aug 16, 2006 9:37:45 GMT -6
this is where I'm having problems -
"4. Other offensive actions a) The remise A simple and immediate offensive action which follows the original attack, without withdrawing the arm, after the opponent has parried or retreated, when the latter has either quitted contact with the blade without riposting or has made a riposte which is delayed, indirect or compound."
so if I read this right: if the opponent does nothing else the attacker still has priority as the Fleche continues
How ever, on reading -
3. To judge the priority of an attack when analysing the fencing phrase, it should be noted that:
d) Continuous steps forward, with the legs crossing one another, constitute a preparation and on this preparation any simple attack has priority.
I'm actually more confuesd! So reading this and previous threads, once the back foot hits the ground, if no hit is made the attack is over and then turns into a preparation? but doesn't the remise count then?
but just to confuse matters more -
t.59. When compound attacks are made, the opponent has the right to stophit; but to be valid the stop hit must precede the conclusion of the attack by an interval of fencing time; that is to say that the stop hit must arrive before the attacker has begun the final movement of the attack.
so if I read this right (for a RH Fencer) if you land a hit prior to the left foot hitting then it's your point!
and to the materof leaving the piste -
A competitor who crosses one of the lateral boundaries of the piste with one or both feet — e.g. when making a flèche — to avoid being hit will be penalised as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120. (first - Yellow, second - Red Third & Subseq - Red)
On the other hand the ‘flèche which is made by running, even going past the opponent’, and without a corps à corps, is not forbidden: the Referee should not call ‘Halt!’ too soon, in order not to annul a possible riposte; if, when making such a running flèche without hitting his opponent, the fencer who makes the flèche crosses the lateral boundaries of the piste, he must be punished as laid down in Article t.28.3. (first - Yellow, second - Red Third & Subseq - Red)
So for a RH fencer, after the left foot lands in front, he can't maintain or gain priority with a remise? Is this correct?
Thanks, Chris
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Post by Dan Gorman on Aug 16, 2006 14:20:06 GMT -6
Fencer X starts a fleche, and Fencer Y counter-attacks into it.
Scenario A:
Y's counter-attack lands prior to X's (front or rear) foot hitting the ground and X's action lands after the foot in question hit. The counter-attack is very likely in time, becomes a stop hit or a simple attack in preparation and the fleche fails.
Scenario B:
Y's counter-attack lands after X's (front or rear) foot hitting the ground and X's action lands before the other foot hits. Fencer X's attack arrives in time.
Think of preparation as any action preceding the final action of a compound attack. If X makes a feint attack (with a fleche or lunge) and is hit during the feint, then X was hit in preparation. If X makes an attack with several advances and finishes with a lunge and is hit before the lunge begins, then X was hit in time (preparation). If X makes a fleche that proceeds beyond the initial steps, then this is a compound attack and for Y's counter-attack to be in time, it has to land before final action of the attack begins.
No. It depends what the other fencer does. If the other fencer is still reacting to an attack, then the fencer's attack continues until one of the fencers changes things. Watch some world cup tapes; you'll see lots of running attacks that should give you an idea of the actions being called.
On a different subject, I think you might be quoting an older version of the rule for leaving the side of the strip. "t.28 ... A competitor who crosses one of the lateral boundaries of the strip with one or both feet – e.g. when making a fleche – to avoid being touched will be penalized as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120" (USFA Rules, 2005) (italics mine). You are only penalized if you leave the strip to avoid being hit. This assigning of intent is an entirely different can of worms than we've been kicking around.
Dan
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