kb
Squire
Posts: 261
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Post by kb on Mar 14, 2007 7:44:29 GMT -6
Dear Referees: I am confused. When I read the FOC handbook, I find this passage under "Administrative Duties" (my bold): "Be sure to check the accuracy of any score sheet, total all indicators, have all fencers initial all scoresheets – pool and direct elimination – and you then sign the score sheet."I have been to two competitions now (one sectional, one national) where the referee refused to total the indicators. Both said "that's not my job" and one very highly ranked referee told me (after I went to the aid of the teens not having any luck talking politely) it was "not in the handbook". But I see on the website it IS in the handbook. One of the refs at the national tournament told me no one was to total indicators. I checked other pools-they were all totaling indicators. Oh-and they were in no way pressed for time in any of the events when these incidents occurred. My fencer was taught to not sign the pool sheet until he sees an indicator and the entire pool sheet has been calculated. And I noticed that the pools in both events consisted of young fencers. Can one of our local refs address this? Also-why is it the local refs follow this rule, but the higher ranked the ref, the less they follow what is in the handbook? Thanks all!
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Post by DavidSierra on Mar 14, 2007 8:21:24 GMT -6
Some clarification.
First, what the fencer is signing for verification is the SCORE of the bouts. Not the indicators. Repeat, the fencer is signing the SCORE. If the referee wishes to have the fencer sign the bout sheet after all of the fencers bouts have been completed (not neccessarily all the bouts in the pool either, but just the fencer's bouts) the referee is quite within his right to do so. In fact, my standard protocol is to have fencers sign the scoresheet as soon as their last bout has been recorded. If you wish to hang around AFTER I've totalled everything, and look at the sheet as I am walking it up to the bout committee, I will be happy to let you do so. Note - I DO MY TALLIES AS I AM WALKING IT UP TO THE BOUT COMMITTEE AFTER ALL THE FENCERS HAVE SIGNED. If you want to look over my shoulder, you're more than welcome to do so, but this is a courtesy only, and nothing you do or say at that point has any effect.
Second, the indicators and other tallies on the scoresheet MUST be totaled before the referee turns it into the bout committee. However, this is an issue between the referee and the bout committee - the fencer's involvement with the scoresheet ends as soon as they sign the scoresheet at the conclusion of their bout in the pool. The purpose for this is part of the data-entry double check system that the bout committee utilizes. It is not something that the fencers should be interjecting themselves into. Special note: This is one of the little things that a good bout commitee person knows about and is one of the reasons you hire someone who knows what they are doing behind the desk.
A fencer who has been taught that the scoresheet must be completely tallied before he or she signs has been taught incorrectly. A referee who turns in a scoresheet that has not been completely tallied will have his head removed by the bout committee. These are two seperate and non-overlapping issues.
Incidentally, I've seen the highest level of referees dressed down, in public, for turning in a bout sheet without everything tallied. But, this is neither the responsibility of, nor the business of the fencers in that pool.
BTW, the handbook is not entirely up to date and includes a number of erronous guidelines and directions.
Edit: It is also within the perogative of the Head Referee and Bout Committee Chair to modify >protocols< (not RULES mind you, but PROTOCOLS) slightly in order to more efficiently run a tournament. For example, if the computers went down for some reason and we ended up running the event on cards (shudder), I would quitely likely instruct the referees tally and have their fencers double check the indicators before signing, because we've lost the data entry double check system that we usually use.
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Post by schlager7 on Mar 14, 2007 8:37:26 GMT -6
I do not referee at National events and only rarely at Sectional tournaments, but I know that I was taught to fill out everything on my pool sheet and calculate the indicators.
Every now and then I get lucky and have an arithmatically-inclined scorekeeper assigned to me who happily performs such duties.
(Having come up as a fine arts major in college, I defer to those with a feel for numbers.) ;D
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kb
Squire
Posts: 261
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Post by kb on Mar 14, 2007 12:29:13 GMT -6
Thanks for the replies.
The referees in question (at both events) were not filling out the entire score sheet before they got to the bout committee. They were denying they had to anything at all and that the passage did not exist in the the FOC handbook.
Too bad there is not a complete set of "rules" instead of "guidelines" (pirate!). Then everyone would be on the same page.
kb
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