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Post by D on May 31, 2007 14:09:46 GMT -6
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Post by D on May 31, 2007 14:37:28 GMT -6
Also, if i dipped a non-working lame in an IONIC LIQUID then allowed it to dry, would it be conductive again?? "Ionic liquids are completely nonvolatile, noncombustible, highly conductive, recyclable and capable of dissolving a wide variety of materials. " www.bnl.gov/chemistry/programs/IonicLiquids.aspSecondly, where would i get an Ionic liquid?
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Post by D on Jun 4, 2007 9:39:35 GMT -6
Oh come on i know somebody knows more about chemistry and stuff than I do..... Right? Or are Most of you all just epee fencers?
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Post by MTD on Jun 4, 2007 19:52:38 GMT -6
There's bad news, good news, and bad news on this front. Bad news: Fabrics designed for EMF shielding are not necessarily compatible with the needs of lamés. First, they're not meant to be made into clothing for people, worn, beat on by fencing weapons, sweated on, wadded up, and shoved into fencing bags. Further, EMF shielding does not require surface conductivity. A perfectly good EMF shielding fabric could be non-conductive on the front and back, as long as a middle layer conducts. Good news: Having just warned that conductive fabric designed for one purpose requiring a conductive cloth will not necessarily be at all useful for an entirely unrelated purpose needing conductive cloth, it is my understanding that some of these fabrics ARE suitable for manufacturing lamés! Yes, some of these kinds of fabrics can be made into perfectly fine lamés. Bad news: You're not the first person to think of this. Lamé makers, at least some of them, are already aware of these fabrics. If the fabric can be used for a good lamé in a cost-efficient way, you're probably already seeing it being used on strip now. Don't expect lamé prices to drop, because they've already dropped.
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Post by MTD on Jun 4, 2007 20:26:23 GMT -6
Also, if i dipped and non-working lame in an IONIC LIQUID then allowed it to dry, would it be conductive again?? "Ionic liquids are completely nonvolatile, noncombustible, highly conductive, recyclable and capable of dissolving a wide variety of materials." www.bnl.gov/chemistry/programs/IonicLiquids.aspSecondly, where would i get an Ionic liquid? Let's set the record straight on ionic liquids. There is nothing about ionic liquids which would mean that they would be NONvolatile, although they all ought to tend to have very low vapor pressures. There is nothing about ionic liquids which would mean that they would be noncombustable. There is nothing about ionic liquids which would mean that they would be recyclable in any commercially meaningful sense of the word. And, there is nothing about ionic liquids which would mean that they would always be capable of dissolving a wide variety of materials. Further, if an ionic liquid were too good at dissolving a wide variety of materials, it would dissolve your lamé. The one thing which is essentially guaranteed is that ionic liquids are highly conductive. If you dip anything in an ionic liquid and allow it to dry, you have just proven that the ionic liquid is volatile, or else it would not dry. And, if it does "dry", that means the ionic liquid has gone away, and along with it, its own conductivity. It's the liquid itself which does the conducting. Ionic liquids do not miraculously transfer the property of conductivity to insulators which they happen to contact. Now, it's theoretically possible that a chemical agent could alter a particular insulator in a way which converts the surface of that insulator into a conductor -- but, if so, it's because of the particular reaction which results between the insulator and the other chemical, not because the other chemical just happens to be a liquid and ionic. If you were to dip your lamé into an ionic liquid, and NOT allow it to try, it would conduct just fine. It would be a perfectly satisfactory lamé, except for two problems. First problem: You would have to select an ionic liquid which would not wet the lining of the lamé. If you did otherwise, the lining too would become moistened with the ionic liquid, become conductive, and thereby render the lamé non-conforming. Second problem: When you present your lamé at equipment control, it will be refused because it is wet. The armorer knows that he may very well find that the lamé conducts quite well, but the conductivity may be an artifact of the liquid, not the solid portions of the garment, and when the garment is actually used on strip, the armorer has to assume that the liquid won't be there any more. Now, as to how to get ionic liquids, it depends on how ionic you want. Usually an "ionic liquid" is expected to be composed almost entirely of ionic species. But, that's not required for conductivity to be more than good enough. So, if you want a poor man's not-quite-ionic-liquid, try sweat. It can make a lamé conduct quite well (until the sweat dries). If you want the real thing, which ionic liquid do you want? The grandfather of them all is ethylammonium nitrate. You really don't want to mix it with fencing gear. The MSDS isn't that scary, but it makes it clear that you don't want to be touching or breathing it. And, it doesn't stay a liquid if you are in a really cold room (there are stories of tournaments decades ago which really were more than cold enough to freeze ethylammonium nitrate). Ionic liquids where the anion is hexafluorophosphate or tetrafluoroborate have much worse toxicity issues. 1-butyl-3-methylimidazolium chloride is one ionic liquid I just happened to pick to research availability. (It has the interesting property of being able to dissolve an entire banana, so it is useful for food researchers to analyze the ripening of bananas.) It's cheaper by the kilogram than by the 100 grams. You can buy a kilogram from Sigma-Aldrich for $240.50. (I think this excludes shipping.) Of course, it's toxic and hazardous to the environment.
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Post by LongBlade on Jun 4, 2007 21:42:49 GMT -6
1-butyl-3-methylimidazolium chloride is one ionic liquid I just happened to pick to research availability. (It has the interesting property of being able to dissolve an entire banana, so it is useful for food researchers to analyze the ripening of bananas.) It's cheaper by the kilogram than by the 100 grams. You can buy a kilogram from Sigma-Aldrich for $240.50. (I think this excludes shipping.) Of course, it's toxic and hazardous to the environment. So... Matt... I have to ask! How many bananas have you dissolved in Ionic Liquids?
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Post by schlager7 on Jun 5, 2007 6:38:41 GMT -6
LongBlade, never ask MTD questions like that unless you really want to know.
BTW, I asked Sam "Purple Fencer" Signorelli in California to give this thread a look. He wrote:
Your moderator on the forum answered the materials questions pretty well...i really can;t add much to it.
I;ve looked at some of those companies and got much the same answers....the stuff may not be suited for lames.
Another consideration is the material used...copper lame is cheaper and needs more care (Chinese lames), while stainless steel is more expensive and generally lasts longer, although you STILL have to care for it (German ones). And the major manufacturers aren't telling where they get their material...I've tried!
I'm working with a Chinese maker for my own line of clothing...when I get to the point where I;m buying lame in bulk, I'll put the word out if anyone wants to jump on board....may be awhile, tho.
sorry I couldn;t be of more help.
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Post by D on Jun 5, 2007 9:26:20 GMT -6
THANKS THAT WAS A GREAT ANSWER!!!!!! OR ANSWERS!!
But the thing about being cost efficient is not really what im caring about..... In reality, im looking to make my own very (expencive probably) ultra light "Infinity like" lame for when my Infinity lame goes bad..
Im looking for a breathable, and or ultra light material like the Infinity lames.
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Post by D on Jun 5, 2007 9:27:22 GMT -6
ITS BECOMING VERY OBVIOUS THAT I DONT KNOW HOW TO USE THE QUOTING FEATURE CORRECTLY...........
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Post by schlager7 on Jun 5, 2007 10:31:00 GMT -6
ITS BECOMING VERY OBVIOUS THAT I DONT KNOW HOW TO USE THE QUOTING FEATURE CORRECTLY........... Please, ma'am, allow me to assist.
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Post by schlager7 on Jun 5, 2007 17:59:37 GMT -6
Before MTD responded, I sent out an email as a shot in the dark to D's queries.
I recently recieved an email (one I know I will save) that is a tribute to:
the original questions posed by Damaris;
Matt's response;
and, for my money, so many of the posts on this and the other boards of this forum by all of you...
=========================================
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Post by LongBlade on Jun 5, 2007 21:17:30 GMT -6
LongBlade, never ask MTD questions like that unless you really want to know. [/b][/quote] Call it a perverse curiosity if you want, Schlager. But I really want to know exactly what Matt did (and why) to disolve those bananas! And if he'll own up to doing it!
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Post by swordmaster on Jun 6, 2007 13:35:48 GMT -6
I have gone as far as ordering a sample pack of sheilding fabrics from these guys. Some of them look promising. But I just haven't broke down and spent $2000 to $5000 dollars for a roll of the fabric. Call me lazy, but I guess I just think it is easier to just order the best lames money can buy from Estoc! Happy hunting!
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Post by swordmaster on Jun 6, 2007 13:44:05 GMT -6
I suggest you order a sample pack of material from EMF Blocker and see what you think about it. But remember, the thing that makes an Infinity Lame breathable is not so much the lame but the lining. You should be able to come up with a fabric that has >5ohm resistance and has an open enough weave for the breathablility factor, for around $90 to $160 a yard. You may can make one sabre lame from a yard.
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Post by D on Jun 7, 2007 11:10:44 GMT -6
[quote author=swordmaster board=Equipment thread=1180642186 post=1181158548[/quote] Call me lazy, but I guess I just think it is easier to just order the best lames money can buy from Estoc! [/quote]
Althought I know that the Estoc Lames will last until my daughter starts fencing, who is not yet named, conceived or even sure to exist one day, Its the exact opposite of what im looking for in a lame.
Id rather have an ultra comforable lame that craps out soon, rather than wear the full on knights armor that the Estoc lames are.
Although i do wish that our club would soley invest in those seeing that they are what they are.
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Post by D on Jun 7, 2007 11:33:56 GMT -6
I have gone as far as ordering a sample pack of sheilding fabrics from these guys. Some of them look promising. [/quote] Are any of the fabrics breathable like the infinity material that you have ordered? Id love to know which ones you thought were promising.
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Post by yeoldearmourer on Jun 10, 2007 7:41:59 GMT -6
I have taking a look at several of these fabric for lame use while they meet the ohms requirements in the rules my question is durable-able at 250.00 a yard it expensive and the question of breathable comes into play. I am thinking about making a pullover sabre lame for Adelia out of some of it when I have some extra money.
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Post by fox on Jun 11, 2007 8:18:25 GMT -6
Way to go, D! You certainly got all the big guns from the armory field chiming in on this set of questions!
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Post by D on Jun 12, 2007 9:18:12 GMT -6
ID LOVE TO BE A TEST GUINEA PIG FOR A NEW LAME Protégée!! Id even pay to get one if its anything like an infinity lame!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a pull over lame,, Humm i never thought of that.
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Post by D on Jun 12, 2007 9:37:36 GMT -6
Although,, I just realized that i probably would not be a good test person if your looking to put the lame through some hell, because i dont really sweat alot.
BUT I STILL WANNA DO IT.
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dhcjr
Contributor
Posts: 15
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Post by dhcjr on Jul 11, 2007 12:42:35 GMT -6
One other problem with EMF fabric is what they are designed to do. They are designed to disapate static electricity. This means they conduct but not well. I would expect a square yard of fabric would be over 100 Ohms from corner to corner. From any point to and other point, even between different panels you have to have less than 5 Ohms resistance.
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