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Post by schlager7 on Oct 16, 2005 22:57:46 GMT -6
At the request of some, and since *I* have not heard anything new from Mr. Alperstein, I have re-posted both the most recent draft of our division's bylaws AND the minutes from the July 31 meeting on the Rogue Site.
Just look to the blue menu on the left.
TTFN
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Post by augustskopik on Oct 17, 2005 8:27:17 GMT -6
Dear Fencers,
We have requested the by-laws and minutes from our official USFA division officers, and they were unable to produce these minutes. The first request was at the meeting to discuss tournament schedules in early August. I saw the minutes posted on the "rogue" site, and immediately see several errors.
Andrey specifically addressed some of the potential problems that have already come to the surface in the short time since our new by-laws. He asked if the bout committee person does not show up, will the tournament be a sanctioned? He ALSO asked what would happen if the date was changed, the event was changed, (from separate to mixed), if the division representative did not show up, if the times were changed as long as if these changes did not cause conflicts with other tournaments or events on the schedule. Don, Gerrie and everyone was in agreement that this did not lose USFA sanctions.
Three of the division officers, Jerry, Rachel and Matt, said that recent decisions by the Executive Committee were made using these by-laws and minutes as a basis for their decisions. Matt was unable to produce these minutes, and these minutes have never been posted to the USFA division site or distributed on demand to the USFA individual members. This was discussed with Matt yesterday at the Battle on the Bayou, and Matt still said that he can't produce these minutes.
How do you make a decision using a document, if you don't have the document? The document is incorrect, and you can speak to independent witnesses that were there and I can produce a dozen immediately. Because these minutes are not being produced on the official USFA site, these aren't official and therefore can't be discussed. I have not gone through this document in full, but only this specific section. What other errors are there?
HERE IS THE INCORRECT MINUTES PULLED FROM THE "ROGUE" SITE.
"Geva stated a problem with the representative from the Division Bout Committee being called the Chair at a tournament, as this implies that person can take over the tournament. Geva asked who chooses the members of the Bout Committee. He also asked what would happen if the club did not hold the tournament. Geva asked that if the Bout Committee representative did not show up, that the tournament be sanctioned by default."
Without our division producing valid minutes and by-laws for review, it operates in a black hole and in a very dangerous legal precedent.
RULES CAN CHANGE WITHOUT OUR VOTE IN THIS SCENARIO.
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nemo
Blademaster
mobilis in mobili
Posts: 729
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Post by nemo on Oct 17, 2005 9:12:26 GMT -6
Dear Fencers, We have requested the by-laws and minutes from our official USFA division officers, and they were unable to produce these minutes. The first request was at the meeting to discuss tournament schedules in early August. I saw the minutes posted on the "rogue" site, and immediately see several errors. Aren't these the same minutes that were first posted last August? I remember hearing there was a tape recording made or this meeting. Yes? Why not consult the tape? Madame Chair? Possibly because he was on vacation and not in Texas when the meeting went down. My understanding is that either Suzanne Simpson, Nichole Trojanosky or Ms. El-Salah made the recording. One of them probably transcribed the minutes. Sadly, no surprise there... Who demanded a copy? Didn't you just say you know where they're posted now? Right-click-"save as." There, that was easy. No charge for my contribution to peace. but you said you know where they are... See my preceding line... See my line about consulting the tape if it still exists. So if Matt does the "right-click-"save as" AND pastes it to the official site all will be well? Well, you could read it in full and find out. Again, check the tape... According to your description, they have only to appear on the official sight to be valid. I don't think that's what it will take to make you happy. Look, write The Donald or check the tape or solve the problem somehow without starting the 2006 political campaign commercials before Christmas. Heck, why don't we just stand up Lepie, Matt D (sorry, guy, I'll NEVER get your name right unless *I* copy & paste!), Dunaway, El-Salah, Trojanosky, Simpson, et al against a wall and shoot them? I'm pretty cynical and non-trusting by nature, but even *I* think this sounds like we just need some clarification. Oh, and Augie, don't get me wrong. I don't trust you, but I don't trust Louise, either. Nemo the Cynic
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Post by augustskopik on Oct 17, 2005 12:23:58 GMT -6
Nemo,
Yesterday, no one could officially produce the minutes or by-laws. In fact, both Jerry and Rachel said that they had seen them when they had made the decisions recently, but used what was told to them to make a decision.
The next thing that needs to happen, is that the membership would need to vote to accept these minutes or make changes if they are inaccurate. But more importantly, leaders should at least have the documents such as minutes and by-laws if they are to make a decision from them. Jerry and Rachel both should of had these minutes, and as of yesterday there were no minutes to be found. John's site is not official, and if there are incorrect minutes then it can be stated that these are not official minutes if there is an incorrect interpretation, (which has already happened).
Without the membership having the official minutes and by-laws to refer to, then anything can be said or conducted without a by-law basis. Again, John's site is not official. We as members disagree with the minutes and we need to produce the tapes because we have eyewitnesses that interpret the events and language differently.
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Post by Maupin on Oct 17, 2005 22:05:14 GMT -6
I wrote the minutes based on the tape. They are minutes, not a transcript. My main attention was on getting the motions presented by Division members, and phrased by Mr. Alperstein, as they passed. I posted them as soon as I could, which was when they initially appeared on this site, after consulting with Suzanne Simpson, who was also taking minutes. A copy of the minutes, along with the bylaws as revised at the Division meeting, were sent to Mr. Alperstein for his approval. We are still waiting.
I did not have the tape with me at the first Tournament Committee meeting, but did have rough minutes and Mr. Alperstein's exact quotes (some of which he rephrased for our benefit several times until we were happy). I was not expecting to have those quotes challenged at the time by Mr. Skopik. I DID have the tape with me for the second Tournament Committee meeting. Mr. Skopik chose not to attend. Those who were present knew I had it, but didn't need to hear it. I have since carried it to the Fete de Lune, where both Mr. Skopik and I were busy with separate tasks. I also had it at the Cougar Call to Arms, which Mr. Skopik did not attend. I still have it keyed up to the final phrasing of the motion Mr. Skopik disagreed with.
The tape recorder and tape are both the property of Mr. Matt Delevoryas, who was not present at the Division meeting due to his annual vacation. I do not have the ability to make copies of cassette tapes. All I have is a CD player. If you like, I can make a transcript for those interested and then play the tape for an audience and you can all follow along and make sure the transcipt is right. I have already sat through this tape numerous times, which should count toward any time I may have waiting in purgatory. The first half of the meeting is not on the tape. I lost the second blank tape and had to record over the elections at Mr. Alperstein's bidding, due to the importance of the bylaw discussions. The tape begins at the start of those discussions.
Any transcript will be extremely long, due to the inability of some people to be brief. The Division is already broke from bringing in Mr. Alperstein and Ms. Baumgart, which unfortunately, seems to have been in vain. That money could have gone to a more productive purpose, such as sending fencers to Nationals; equipment for small clubs; aid to Spindletop Cavaliers; or providing Coaching, Bout Committee, or Refereeing classes.
Now does everyone understand why I rarely fence anymore?
Nicole Trojanowski
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Post by schlager7 on Oct 17, 2005 22:26:28 GMT -6
<sigh>There goes next weekend. </sigh>I guess Maupin and I will be up the next several nights typing transcripts...
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nemo
Blademaster
mobilis in mobili
Posts: 729
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Post by nemo on Oct 18, 2005 10:49:26 GMT -6
Tough it out, big guy...
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