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Post by Flamberge on Oct 26, 2006 19:12:34 GMT -6
MEMPHIS NAC
These are observations, comments, and thoughts by Giuseppina Marrone, the mother of Pietro Sanfilippo an epeist living in Houston. Prior to moving to Houston, Pietro’s only fencing coach was Maestro Gianni Sperlinga of the Methodos Fencing Club in Catania, Italy. In Houston Pietro trains with Andrey Geva at Alliance Fencing Academy. He has made many good friends at the club, in the Gulf Coast Division, and in the Southwest Section who have had the pleasure and the challenge of crossing blades with him. These comments refer to the NAC-A in Memphis, TN, early in October. During the tournament two Alliance fencers suffered injuries, Pietro at his fencing wrist and Francesca Alexandra Bassa on her nose. The opinions about these incidents are of Pietro’s mom.
I drove to Memphis, a long but pleasant trip… never ending cotton fields in Arkansas (now I understand the spirituals infused with sadness the poor blacks were singing while breaking their backs picking cotton!), the majestic Mississippi, that long road like a long snake which uncoils and disappears deep inside the forest, and all that green with occasional strokes of fall colors… I’m glad that we did not fly to Memphis; I’d have missed all this.
I liked Memphis also, I found it small, quaint, with buildings and churches in a non futuristic style, built with good taste… but no flowers… OK… I liked it anyway.
The natural beauties, though quite remarkable, are not the reasons for me to reflect, think, and write. No. I went there for the NAC. I’m in the fencing world, not directly, but as a mother who for the past 8 years has followed her son more or less every day, and the first thing that comes to my mind is this: fencing is really a world apart!
Every time I enter a fencing venue and I see all those kids and I know what goes in their minds, I always hope and wish, "May the best one win!" Because I know that in 10 minutes these kids put years of training at stake. This is why I don’t like seeing Pietro win or lose by a single touch! If he wins, I think that he got lucky and he’ll continue, and I understand his opponent’s anger which is just like Pietro’s when he loses. A single touch is nothing but a small comma that tells you that you won but your opponent is just as good as you are! And if you lose you say, "d**n, I was so close!" No, I like the bouts won or lost by 2 or more touches. Those are nice! To win means that I’m better than you. To lose means to accept and recognize the other one is better than you and you’ve always a lot to learn from a bout lost to someone better than you...
And I remember Gianni Sperlinga... When Pietro was 7 or 8 years old, before the first ever competition, maestro Sperlinga made all the kids sit on the floor and gave them a speech just like this.
“I don’t care about the result. I don’t care if you win or lose. I want to see what you do, how you react, how you behave… I don’t want to hear ‘I touched him’ if it isn’t true or ‘he didn’t touch me’ if it is true, because I’ll be watching all of you. The touch is decided by the referee. Remember that this is not going to war. The kid against whom you fence did not shoot your dog. He’s there like you to show to himself and his maestro what he’s learned and mastered. If you’ll be correct, results aside, when you’ll lift your mask almost certainly you’ll become friends. Remember that nobody knows you. Nobody knows your name or your mom. On your uniform you carry the patch of your club Methodos and those who will see you won’t know your name, but they’ll know that you are Gianni Sperlinga’s kids and that you represent me. Make sure I don’t have reasons to feel ashamed of you.”
Few days later all the kids were gathered together for the comments, the prizes, the corrections, and when the actual winner of the competition told him, “Gianni, you didn’t tell me anything, and I was the one who won!” he answered, “You won alright, but you didn’t fence! Instead of an epee you had a fishing rod in your hand!”
Gianni Sperlinga was forcing the kids to execute the fencing moves correctly until they became second nature to them because one can win by being correct and proper since every move has its counter move, and every parry has its counter parry; all you have to do is to execute precisely and quickly.
What an idealist Gianni Sperlinga! I was just thinking of him while Pietro was fencing against Robert Greer at the NAC! Greer’s coach is not cut of the same cloth as Gianni Sperlinga for sure! Pietro, charged form his competition in San Marcos (where in the semifinals he was taken by his dear friend and club mate Nathan Sorensen), #4 after pools, he was dreaming to make it to the top spots and why not, also to win this national competition… But on his path he met this young blond fellow who felt lost and started to slash left and right… what a shame! With epee and foil you score with the point… Tell me, am I too biased when I think that his opponent acted this way on purpose because he was frustrated? He slashed Pietro everywhere and then, in that botched lunge, bell guard against bell guard, the wrist gave up. The bad part is that all this fighting didn’t do him any good, he couldn’t touch to win, and the more he couldn’t, the more violent he became… Just like a cat biting his own tail. Afterwards he apologized, but enough damage was already done! How sweet Leslie Freiman and Susie Ferguson! Pietro could not have found two more caring aunts. They came with ice, the wrap, the pills for the pain, and then the next bout which he wins regardless! At the end of the bout, when you must sign the score sheet, he had a hard time taking his glove off so the referee told him that a scribble was just fine, and back to the medics, then back to the next bout which he loses by just one point, and the next one in repechage which he also comes short just one point…
The fantastic Andrey Geva was gushing with suggestions and strategy, but Pietro’s wrist was not cooperating… In San Marcos we all told him bravo! In Memphis he finished 17th and he fought like a lion… But to me he was great! Back in the car he told me, “Thank God I lost because I did not have the courage to give up or the strength to continue…” Susie Ferguson said that Pietro fenced with his head and his heart because he had both his arm and foot out of commission and he still managed to win two DEs…
Ben Freiman, Max Ferguson, Nathan Sorensen, and Nikhil Patel… with Pietro they seemed to be the five fingers of a single hand… Nikhil, trying to make him feel better and smile (*) told him, “Pietro, too bad, that guy could have almost made you look like me!” The value of such a comment! Nikhil will succeed in life and with women because he’s got a sweet smile, fire in his eyes, and he’s a good person!
Nathan towards the end had problems because his epee wasn’t working properly, on and off, but the referee would not let him change it, so he lost. In repechage he used Pietro’s since they are both lefties. Ben Freiman did also well placing in the middle of the field.
And Dina? On the strip she is poised, strong, and sure of herself. She’s been in many successful competitions and she knows her business. I thought that she would not have had any major obstacles but for Francesca. And Francesca? Francesca fences with elegance, imagination, on the strip she moves with class, she has more of an Italian style (my apologies to my American friends), and she’s precise, quick, and has a lunge that doesn’t forgive. She fenced with determination, always on focus, leaving no room to her opponents… but… her too, in the final… a head butt with her friend Neely! This is where I think the referee should always make sure that we are at a fencing tournament and not a rugby match for the sake of both fencers!
Yes, the referees! In Italy we say the sportsmen with no talent, if they still want to remain in the sport environment, they try to become referees. Is a head butt part of the game in fencing? Is it OK to use an epee as if it were a saber, or even worse a whip? Or is it the Principle to win at all costs no matter what the cost? One must always win with honor and lose with dignity! And yet when you’re on the strip, before lowering the mask there isn’t one who doesn’t raise his or her eyes to the sky, believer or not, everyone raises a thought to God, to his lucky star, to the sun or maybe to the full moon, asking that the arm be steady and precise, that the eye doesn’t trick him, that the foot doesn’t falter!
I believe that if fencing is considered an elite sport and the most noble of the sports this is not because it is expensive but because it follows what once was called the knights’ code of honor! The referees should remember that it’s not enough to check the equipment and whether the fencers’ socks are up or down but they equally ought to check that it is a correct bout, un combat courtois as it were which must always respect the rules of proper behavior! Otherwise the governing principle may become, “OK, with a ball between my feet I may not be able to perform the magic tricks of Zidane, but darn it, I can head butt like him also!” Or, “I may not be as great as Sanzo (I regret saying this since he’s Italian, but the truth is the truth) but I can spit just as well!”
This said I want to personally congratulate Robert Reed, a very strong fencer with whom Pietro has both won and lost. For me not only he is an athlete of fencing ability beyond reproach and with a remarkable physical build who could have easily blown Pietro with a puff to unscrew the light bulbs from the ceiling, but he is something else: he’s always impeccably correct. He is the only fencer I’ve seen (aside from Pietro) who corrected the referee who wanted to grant him a foot touch which he said was a floor touch instead. Honors to the great Reed who could teach so much to so many! I had the privilege to shake hands with him and to congratulate him. I hope someone will convey him the esteem in which I hold him. I’m sure that he is just, intellectually free, and honest also in his life. It’s a real pleasure to see him fence.
When Pietro started fencing in Houston, a young, tall Korean fencer at our club Woong Lim who teaches math told Pietro that to earn the respect of the Texan and American epeists it wasn’t necessary to beat all of them, but all one needed was to beat Reed. Now I do understand why, because fencing with him is exciting, makes you feel good whether you loose or win. Maybe Lim wanted to stress only Reed's fencing bravura but I want to underscore that to fence with him, after you lift your mask at the end of the bout, you feel good and as a bonus you’ve earned a new friend, just as it happened to Pietro.
It’s customary that when the bout is over, for the winner to congratulate the looser, telling him that he’s been good, and he does so sometimes to sweeten the bitter pill! In San Antonio instead, when Pietro beat Reed, it was Reed who complimented Pietro telling him that he had the stuff of a champion. When he asked me how old Pietro was and I told him 15, he said that we’ll be hearing of him in few years! I’m sure that he too regretted his loss in that bout, but he did not run away irritated and crossed with his tail between his legs like others, male and female who have not yet learned that to know how to win one must also know how to lose! It’s important to stress and point out the difference in the respective behaviors! This is true fencing!
I want to thank all the mothers and parents and their children and the honest, fair, and sportsmanlike men and women I had the pleasure to meet here. I miss you all already just at the thought of going back to Italy, but if my country makes you curious enough to come and visit, my home is open…
I wish all the people I love peace and bouts of great joy from time to time!!!
Giuseppina
(*) Nikhil Patel is a wonderful young man and a good and dedicated fencer in the South TX Division in San Antonio who won Div III in Memphis. He has only one hand, which explains his joke to cheer up an injured and disappointed Pietro.
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Post by DavidSierra on Oct 26, 2006 23:23:14 GMT -6
MEMPHIS NACYes, the referees! In Italy we say the sportsmen with no talent, if they still want to remain in the sport environment, they try to become referees. Tell her that she can take her stuck up Italian attitude and stuff it. As a referee who works long and hard perfecting my craft, is dedicated to the sport, and has been around the sport since before her precious little Pietro knew what an epee was, I take personal affront at this characterization. She owes an apology to every referee who works hard to make this sport possible for her son. Note: Its a good thing I actually took a moment before hitting send. The original version of this post was quite a bit less charitable.
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Post by Parry Nine on Oct 27, 2006 0:22:33 GMT -6
I agree. If it weren't for those of us giving our time to work tournaments, events would be a lot more difficult to run without referees. Of course, parents will always bitch about something. The thank-less job of the fencing referee. When we do things right, no one notices, but mistake a beat for a parry (and vice-versa), everyone needs to chime in to correct you.
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Post by schlager7 on Oct 27, 2006 6:54:48 GMT -6
It reminds me of the adage, "Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach."
Both are glib, facile and specious.
A few years back, I thought I would try to give something back to fencing. As there always seemed to be a a shortage of referees, I decided to bite the bullet and try my hand. Needless to say the first several times were rough. After a particularly difficult tournament, with particularly difficult competitors, I had decided to chuck the whole idea. Happily, one of our division's more active referees at the time sent me some advice and tips and pushed me through it.
One thing he sent, which I keep in a handy part of my memory, is this sentence.
"If you didn't direct then there wouldn't be a tournament."
At the end of tough events, I use that to keep me going.
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Post by kd5mdk on Oct 27, 2006 9:25:57 GMT -6
Perhaps things are different in Italy...
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Post by ElCaribe on Oct 27, 2006 16:20:43 GMT -6
OK I was asked to reply to this and give my opinion as a parent. I'll probably ruffle a LOT of feathers and should keep my big fat mouth shut but here goes: 1) I have been guilty of complaining of referees work myself. I actually did last weekend in Austin. Although I believe my analysis was right, I regret complaining publicly. I was wrong to do that, it did no good. Referees have the toughest job in the world. Even those that win bouts often complain. My son (ranked 39 in the world last time I looked by the FIE) was once told not to fence locally any more by a top national coach because 'he might develop bad habits due to the saber referees in Texas'. This was poor advice, he ignored it eventually after thinking it through. In Koeglers book on fencing psychology, he says that you need to not let bad directing affect your mindset and learn to fence through it. I personally have seen great improvement in saber directing over the last 3 years (Mr. Sierra has come light years in improvement through hard work-he is one of the best in our area-and there are others too who have improved a great deal). Until you stand next to the strip and try it, be careful in your criticism. That is not to say that both fencers and referees need to improve, everybody does. 2) As far as Italy goes, my son tells me Rome was his favorite city to fence in tne world cups,but...the refereeing was the worst according to our US coaches (and Joe agrees). Politics played a major role. Not only the Americans complained, other countries did as well, but to no avail. They had incredible problems with directing there and in Spain at the senior world cup too. A past Olympian told my son that this was the norm not the exception. In fact this past Olympian has set his goal to get his FIE rating so that in his words "the US fencers would stop getting screwed". So there are a lot of problems in Europe as well. Hard unnecessary hitting was just a small part of it. Ask my son what the US team experience was last year in Italy if you don't believe me. 2) I have to ask where was the coach to protest or demand a bout observer??? The rules do allow for this. If the fencer did not know this that is a shame. If it was so bad, and the coach was not there, or the coach did nothing then shame on the coach. 3) Pietro is a great kid and his parents are very nice. I have had them in our home. He is a hard worker and a fine young man. Parents get emotional (we are all guilty of this). Having said that, there does come a time when you have to realize that some fencers will hit hard, especially when they are getting beat, but you have to man up and deal with it. It's park of the game. My son fenced a kid from the Peter Westbrook foundation last year to get into the top 8 at a NAC. The kid started hitting hard on purpose in an attempt to intimidate. Later Joe told me "I knew I had him beat, he lost control and focus, I just caught him in preparation all the time." Yes he had black and blue reminders of the bout for weeks, but it was part of the game. It was not right but it happens. You have to learn to work the situation. That can mean by asking for an observer, or changing your tactics to get through the bout without getting hurt etc. In the end being a gentleman/women sportsman is most important. It is what is supposed to make fencing unique. But bad things happen, get used to it. 4) I want to thank all those who direct (referee) in the Gulf Coast/So. Texas region. I saw the Trojanowskis working hard in Austin last weekend. I saw a lot of local UT students working hard. Jerry Benson was there. These people are not doing it for the money, fame and glory. They do it for the good of the sport. Just like fencers some are better than others, but just like fencers all are trying their best. The same is true at NACs. Where would fencing be without these people?
Marty Wysocki
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Post by schlager7 on Oct 27, 2006 23:17:10 GMT -6
As Marty noted:
Therein lies the nature of this thing called fencing. Marty is also right about Pietro. He is a great kid and a formidable talent.
I also do not wish anyone to think I took issue with the account by Pietro's mother. If anything, my only other real disagreement with her perspective, from the sheer number of bouts I have watched, is that Pietro and Robert are not the only epeeistes to correct their referee, who was about to award them a valid touche for what they felt was a floor touch.
I have seen the same from John Moreau, Ray Sexton, August Skopik, Jonathan Bibb, Dillon Smith, Greg Micek, Suzanne Simpson, Rebecca Rea, Erin Pytel, Don Cravey, Francesca Bassa, Steve Lalumandier, Dina Bazabayeva, T. C. Sim, Rick Duszinski, Greg Unruh, Jose Cavazos, Kyle Maysel, Steve Mayerich, Liz Gorman... you get the idea.
You could max out every DE in a full table of 128 with the number of touches I have seen passed over by the fencer who was initially being given a touch they felt they did not get. Pietro and Robert are fine and honorable fencers, and they keep good company.
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Post by katyblades on Oct 29, 2006 21:21:42 GMT -6
Dear Fencing Post Members,
Let us please remember that this post was overall observations from the Memphis NAC, and the reference to refereeing was on one particular tournament in two events. Her son had his wrist injured badly in the heat of the event, and what is the referee's number one priority and the number one "client" of the referee?
"To keep the fencer's safe and the fencer's themselves" (Gary V. and George K.)
She does not feel that the referee did that in this instance, but don't let that one observation take precedence over the overall tone of the letter. They have had an excellent reception in our country and she was attempting to convey this excellent reception in explaining the overall context of the experience. I take pride in what she says about the experiences, because while individual bouts may have been negative, they have had great things to say about many young fencers and parents in the area. As a coach I am more responsible for influencing the character of my fencers than anything else I do. She is not naming a GCD fencer or coach in the incident with her son, and it would be wise as fencers and coaches to take note for future bouts with this person as preparation.
I have tried to instill the same logic as the coach Pietro had in my young fencers, but it is very difficult and takes a very strong parental influence to keep the fencer level during difficult competitive times. Not all coaches teach to win using the mental aspect of the sport or by being positive role models. That is a negative in any children's sport. It is something that we as parents, fencers, referees and coaches need to be aware of.
In Bryce's semifinal bout in Y10 epee last year, Bryce scored a beatiful hand touch that the referee apparently did not see around his opponents engarde line. I was not able to get the referee's attention until the opponent's back foot was on the end of the line. Luckily the referee saw it just before the light went off. His coaches were complaining and yelling that Bryce had hit the floor and they stood right behind the referee saying some very nasty things.
In the second bout, Bryce was ahead 3-2 and executed a very strong beat attack Fleche. Unfortunately, his beat was so strong that his opponents blade hit the floor two to three feet of the side of the strip and then his opponent raised his point in a counterattack. Again the coaches and referees, (Not from the GCD), yelled and screamed and influenced the referee and this time he awarded the touched for the opponent with wild cheering on his side. Bryce actually pointed to the mark on the carpet where his opponent had hit off the metal strip. Instead of being up 4 - 2, Bryce was tied in the second bout 3 - 3. The next action was a beat attack floor touch just slightly of the strip and slid off the side of the foot. The director was already awarding the touch and Bryce was immediately telling him he hit the floor. Bryce was still shaking the referee's hand at the end of the bout and thanking him, even while the other fencer, coaches and parents were complaining that Bryce shouldn't have beaten him when Bryce threw out two floor touches and had one awarded against him in a critical juncture in a 5 - 3 bout.
We should look at these comments with the same manner as Bryce, and understand that they were made to draw up a context of the situation. I referee, and have made mistakes. I have missed calls, given cards when they should not have been given, and not given cards when they should have. I have stopped bouts with blades in all sorts of dangerous locations. Fortunately, I have not had anyone severely hurt whiled I directed. I have often been accused of stopping the bout too early in the phrase because in my opinion the situation was dangerous for someone in the action.
I think we should look at the many positive things she had to say with pride, and see if there are any things that could be done better in the future. Are we being safe enough? As referees, (and I am increasingly being asked to ref), are we doing all we can to make certain that everyone is safe? A good referee should be an extension of the scoring box, and all fencers should have an even plane. Are we allowing brutish, non-fencing actions to overcome the fencing actions?
I saw an "A" cadet epeeist in Lance's pool at last year's JOs from the East Coast, and he was intent on running everyone over. The referee did not allow that, and made them all fence safely. The "A" had lost his temper and was intending to hurt, because he lost his first three bouts in the pool scoring his only touch on Lance. If the referee had not controlled the situation, then someone would have been hurt. The young man recovered the little poise his possessed and was able to win several bouts. More importantly, no one was hurt.
I ask that we give her a pass on the referee reference. Quoting Jack Black from "School of Rock" . . . "Those who can't do teach, and those who can't teach . . . coach." That would put me on the bottom of the food chain. Let us take the positives away from her letter, and not let anything negative be taken personally.
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Post by ElCaribe on Oct 29, 2006 21:35:55 GMT -6
Augie, I appreciate what you have to say. Having said that, I think when you say that refereeing is for folks who 'have no talent' you have a problem, whether it is in Memphis , Houston or Rome. When you imply that in Italy there is more sportsmanship, that is offensive too. Coaching too is an honorable profession and is not filled with folks who 'can't teach' (ask Pouj's fencers if they think he could 'not teach' therefore became a coach-ask them if he taught them anything about fencing or life, or sportsmanship or dieing with honor, or competing with class). Coaching is teaching at a very high level, especially in fencing where mind and body both need to be trained. Degrading either of those two endeavors shows a lack of understanding at best. And at worst......
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Post by Flamberge on Nov 1, 2006 2:27:56 GMT -6
MEMPHIS NACYes, the referees! In Italy we say the sportsmen with no talent, if they still want to remain in the sport environment, they try to become referees. Tell her that she can take her stuck up Italian attitude and stuff it. As a referee who works long and hard perfecting my craft, is dedicated to the sport, and has been around the sport since before her precious little Pietro knew what an epee was, I take personal affront at this characterization. She owes an apology to every referee who works hard to make this sport possible for her son. Note: Its a good thing I actually took a moment before hitting send. The original version of this post was quite a bit less charitable. In reading the various comments posted after the very nice letter by Giuseppina, Pietro's mom, my first thought went to the line by Macduff to Macbeth (Act 2, Scene 3) Confusion now hath made his masterpiece! But going over the strident reply by DavidSierra quoted above, I am reminded rather of the lines spoken by the Duke Senior to Orlando in As You Like It (Act 2, Scene 7) Art thou thus bolden'd, man, by thy distress, Or else a rude despiser of good manners, That in civility thou seem'st so empty? Or in more current vernacular not to be accused to be haughty, "What's your problem, David? Did you have a rough day or something? Did anyone tell you that your French is not up to par?" The two posts by Schlager7 leave me puzzled as I can't figure out if you have a point or if you want to make a point, but your comments, polite as they are, are also off the mark. Lastly, my good friend Marty is, in my opinion, taking off in a direction not warranted by the initial post by Giuseppina. If I may, my reply contains both my personal opinions and the response by Giuseppina who even with her limited English, understands that some of you did not understand what she meant with her nice letter and, I suppose, have difficulty in comprehending plain English. DavidSierra, aside from having a desire to appear as "a rude despiser of good manners" by showing his "emptiness in civility" as the bard of Avon would so nicely put, picks on a single phrase without understanding its meaning. So indulge me in a step by step explanation of the "fatal" phrase by emphasizing the crucial point and meaning. OK, everyone please read what she wrote. Yes, the referees! In Italy we say the sportsmen with no talent, if they still want to remain in the sport environment, they try to become referees. Let's go over it, shall we? Q: Did she say that referees ARE sportsmen with no talent? A: NO, she did not! Q: Did she say what [some] sportsmen with no [limited] talent do? A: Yes, she did! Q: So what did she say then? A: That the above mentioned sportsmen with no talent who still want to stick around, TRY TO BECOME REFEREES! [emphasis on the predicate TRY TO BECOME] Q: Do they all succeed in becoming referees? A: Probably not, but admittedly some do and it would be great if the referee training would make them good at their newly chosen hobby or profession to actually become better referees than they were fencers. How this simple sentence in plain English could be construed to be offensive to the class of hard working, fair, and competent referees in Italy, in Texas or anywhere else for that matter, is beyond my comprehension. And since DavidSierra states that, as the target of the Sanfilippo's mother philippic (you ought to love this one) he even rewrote in a "more charitable way" his comments, as he tells in the foot note, let me try to assuage him by saying, "No, David, because she does not even have a clue of who you are. As a referee you don't have your name plastered on your back, so you remain blissfully anonymous to her and many others, as any referee should be." The point she makes about referees, their competence and responsibilities is a very valid one, namely how to control the bout as far as safety for both fencers. True, at major international events with top fencers who are practically professional athletes and for whom the outcome of a bout means real money and has life or death implications for their professional fencing career, at that level (they are almost all adult) a certain amount of roughing and posturing takes place, as is always the case when money, relatively speaking big money, is involved. But here we talk about local tournaments, or national tournaments for cadets or younger... And think about this: ANYONE with a fencing weapon in his hand, if out of control, becomes a danger to himself, his opponent, the referee, and anyone else in close proximity. This is why a youngster or a beginner fencer ought to learn the correct moves first, as stressed by the nice talk given by Maestro Sperlinga to his young pupils before and after their first competition. It is incumbent upon the referee to make sure that both fencers fence safely WITHIN the rules, but also within the mores of a combat courtois, as Giuseppina so aptly put. Obviously any spectator, any participant in a tournament who would notice a referee making a point about socks height, expects also and even more that that referee makes sure that the bout is safe for everyone. And she is not talking of accidental injuries that can always happen even when fencing correctly. Her emphasis is on the expression "out of control" due to ignorance, poor training, stupidity or even viciousness which like in the case of pornography, any reasonable person knows when he sees it. That people who claim to be referees or would like to lay such claim do not understand this fundamental point made by Giuseppina, is frankly appalling. Schlager7 first post is ... hard to characterize. If one were to analyze the different components of a fencing tournament, one would conclude that without fencers, even with a retinue of selfless referees and other officials you'd have no tournament to run. And without the coaches who supposedly prepared these fencers, you'd have a melee instead of a proper fencing tournament. And without the parents footing the bill for this "education" and driving the kids to and fro these venues, there would be no tournament either... Let's agree then that everyone is important and referees are just a category of people who have fun (I hope) doing what they do, without too much emphasis on their sense of gratitude toward fencing or any other more or less deep seated Freudian reason to explain a need to control. My good friend Marty seems to read a criticism to all referees in general and some in Texas in particular in the words of Pietro's mom. Nothing further from her intention. She did not name names but she raised, appropriately in my opinion, the issue of safety. This is fencing, after all, not rugby, as she puts it. Neither did she ever say, nor imply that refereeing in Italy was better or worse than here. In fact she would tell you that the problems with referees, in particular for weapons with convention, are serious everywhere, as it is to be expected since one can say that the sport of fencing simulates a duel where blood was/is the ultimate proof. This ultimate burden of proof in the sport of fencing is now taken by a scoring apparatus (not perfect, as we've learned) and the judgment of a referee (not infallible, as we all know). The problem with referees the world over is that no matter how hard they try, they will always make some mistakes, and this makes it difficult to discern between a referee who is competent and makes an honest mistake, and one who is incompetent, or even biased, who makes a similar "mistake." From the fencer's point of view, in either situation he feels he's been wronged and he sees his months, years of training going down the drain because of a "wrong" decision by a referee. Notice, if you will, how Giuseppina opened the fencing portion of her post. She said that she always wishes "May the best one win!" she did not say "May my precious little Pietro win!" In fact she even said that she does not like when he wins by just one point, since in a way she feels it deprives the opponent of a clear answer. Yes the referees are tired, yes they also show abnegation, yes they may be even masochist to put themselves through so much chagrin but they should also think of their duty to do their best in a competent manner since the fencers have also months of hard training on their back. This is all she said and I can't see how anyone could disagree with her. By the way, if you take the time to check the bios of many of the top referees in every country you'll see that indeed many had, to say the least, mediocre career as fencers. Is this demeaning to the referees? Not at all, unless they prove not to deserve the respect they all should have earned. Are all referees failed athletes? Absolutely no, and the same could be said about coaches. Not all best athletes become best coaches, quite rarely in fact, nor all best coaches are former top athletes. Schlager7 with his second postings restates the obvious... everybody needs improving... but then goes on to point his "only other real disagreement" with Giuseppina who said she had seen only Robert Reed and Pietro acknowledging a floor touch instead of a foot touch. This was her observation which obviously pertains the bouts SHE has seen which are mostly those of HER son... She never meant the counterpart of her statement, Schlager7 puzzling interpretation, that nobody else was acknowledging a floor touch when there was one. In the list by Schlager7 I recognize some names of people I personally have never seen admitting a floor touch by them or a foot touch on them, but most surprisingly his list does not include one fencer, Daniel Trapani, whom I have seen MANY TIMES recognizing a floor touch or a foot touch on himself when he knows it to be the case. Does it mean that with his omission Schlager7 offended Daniel Trapani? Of course not, so what's good for the goose let's make sure is equally good for the gander. And going to my good friend Marty's last post, please notice that she never said "that refereeing is for folks who 'have no talent' " Nor did she ever imply that "in Italy there is more sportsmanship." Quite to the contrary in fact. Nor did she belittle the coaching profession in any way shape or form, if you read her grateful compliments for Maestro Sperlinga and Andrey Geva, her son's two coaches thus far. In fact, what Marty says, "Coaching is teaching at a very high level, especially in fencing where mind and body both need to be trained" could have been her words exactly as part of her post. However, I cannot but totally disagree with Marty's final characterization "Degrading either of those two endeavors shows a lack of understanding at best. And at worst......" Never did she say that nor would say anything like that. She, like you, Marty, is too fond of the sport for the sake of her kid, just as you are! I conclude with these words by Giuseppina. She says that when she compliments someone it is sincere and from her heart. If she comments about a situation, she is equally sincere. If she leaves out somebody's name it's often because the connection between spelling and sound of peoples names for her is a challenge. She would never dare calling Dina by her last name, but has no problem with Skopik or Bibb or Reed, or why not, Trapani. So, if she did leave some names out, it is often because she can't understand them or remember... And, she repeats her invitation to EVERYONE to come visit her home in Italy when she, regretfully (her word), will leave Houston. And yes, being the lady that she is, and a fencing mom, you too, DavidSierra, are invited to enjoy her hospitality if you'll be visiting Italy as an aspiring or fully credited FIE referee. You have the dedication and determination to become one. Just work on few other facets to avoid waking up with a foot in your mouth. Here is my last zinger for all of us (myself in particular), including the referees. In the words of Plutarch, Philosophum non fecit barba A beard does not make you a philosopher [wise man] Mutatis mutandis as a learned lawyer would say, remember y'all A blue blazer and a three color set of cards in your pocket, do not a referee make... P. S.: A kind apology to Giuseppina is always welcome... so don't be shy or bashful, y'hear?
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nemo
Blademaster
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Post by nemo on Nov 1, 2006 7:45:06 GMT -6
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Post by DavidSierra on Nov 1, 2006 11:23:40 GMT -6
How this simple sentence in plain English could be construed to be offensive to the class of hard working, fair, and competent referees in Italy, in Texas or anywhere else for that matter, is beyond my comprehension. Then perhaps you might do well to consider the opinions and feelings of those in the community to whom you are addressing. You are quite skilled at taking offense at other's words. It is high time you start developing a bit of tact and restraint yourself. If no one else has taken the time to call you to the carpet on this before hand, rest assured, I am doing it now. Either cut it out, or start thinking a bit about what you write and pass on from others. And no, I don't have a particularly thin skin, and I've been refereeing for long enough to shrug such inflamatory remarks off (even if they were unintentional, they were still inflamatory and hurtful). And I've acheived sufficent stature as a referee to let my accomplishments stand for themselves. But there are a lot of younger and developing referees who don't have the benefit of such experience, and I consider it one of my duties as a senior referee in this area to look out and protect (not to coddle, but develop and nuture) them. And those remarks, even if unintentional can not be left to sit by themselves, particularly when publically stated. They demean and deminish, and serve no useful purpose in and of themselves. As to why I chose those remarks to comment upon and not the rest? Its because, aside from that, it was an extraoridinarily well written account from a viewpoint that was fascinating. I think, and this is not an insult in the slightest, that it is a bit naive viewpoint, and doesn't take into an account an understand WHY such actions as the ones she was referring to weren't being called as brutality. [Aside: For this, we can blame the epee coaches themselves, who have insisted that a rule of 'no blood, no foul' be the order of the day in epee. Thankfully, this idea is changing, albiet slowly.] It was certainly well written, insightful from its perspective, and quite the read. However, at the end, it verged into truculance, and displayed a biting, supercilious tone, with an attitude of superiority that I found distasteful. Just as I found Gorgio's remarks distasteful. One again, you have demonstrated your talent for taking someone's words, repeating them, and stating for them what they mean. Its a retorical device that usually works for you, but it is drawing on limited sustainability. Cut it out. In response to your Latin translation (I'm quite well educated enough to recognize the original source), let me offer an additional one, "A set of phrase books does not a scholar make." And so, I'll close with alluding to a saying we have in America, to counter the comment about Italians and medocore competitors who try to become referees. There's a reason parents complain about the referees...
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Post by jack on Nov 1, 2006 13:26:11 GMT -6
"Then perhaps you might do well to consider the opinions and feelings of those in the community to whom you are addressing. You are quite skilled at taking offense at other's words. It is high time you start developing a bit of tact and restraint yourself. If no one else has taken the time to call you to the carpet on this before hand, rest assured, I am doing it now. Either cut it out, or start thinking a bit about what you write and pass on from others.
And no, I don't have a particularly thin skin, and I've been refereeing for long enough to shrug such inflamatory remarks off (even if they were unintentional, they were still inflamatory and hurtful). And I've acheived sufficent stature as a referee to let my accomplishments stand for themselves. But there are a lot of younger and developing referees who don't have the benefit of such experience, and I consider it one of my duties as a senior referee in this area to look out and protect (not to coddle, but develop and nuture) them. And those remarks, even if unintentional can not be left to sit by themselves, particularly when publically stated. They demean and deminish, and serve no useful purpose in and of themselves.
As to why I chose those remarks to comment upon and not the rest? Its because, aside from that, it was an extraoridinarily well written account from a viewpoint that was fascinating. I think, and this is not an insult in the slightest, that it is a bit naive viewpoint, and doesn't take into an account an understand WHY such actions as the ones she was referring to weren't being called as brutality. [Aside: For this, we can blame the epee coaches themselves, who have insisted that a rule of 'no blood, no foul' be the order of the day in epee. Thankfully, this idea is changing, albiet slowly.] It was certainly well written, insightful from its perspective, and quite the read. However, at the end, it verged into truculance, and displayed a biting, supercilious tone, with an attitude of superiority that I found distasteful.
Just as I found Gorgio's remarks distasteful. One again, you have demonstrated your talent for taking someone's words, repeating them, and stating for them what they mean. Its a retorical device that usually works for you, but it is drawing on limited sustainability. Cut it out.
In response to your Latin translation (I'm quite well educated enough to recognize the original source), let me offer an additional one, "A set of phrase books does not a scholar make."
And so, I'll close with alluding to a saying we have in America, to counter the comment about Italians and medocore competitors who try to become referees. There's a reason parents complain about the referees..."
Spell check, spell check, spell check...especially when claiming one is well educated.
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Post by kd5mdk on Nov 1, 2006 15:32:25 GMT -6
What a useful post
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Post by Parry Nine on Nov 1, 2006 16:50:02 GMT -6
And from an anonymous guest...
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Post by schlager7 on Nov 1, 2006 20:59:04 GMT -6
Flamberge wrote: He also admits to difficulty with my posts. I applaud his honesty and wish to offer my assistance. Please review my list of fencers. Please note the list terminates with a device we know in English as an ellipsis. I believe the spelling is the same in Italian. el·lip·sis (-lpss) Pronunciation Key n. pl. el·lip·ses (-sz) The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding. An example of such omission. A mark or series of marks (... or * * *, for example) used in writing or printing to indicate an omission, especially of letters or words. [Latin ellpsis, from Greek elleipsis, from elleipein, to fall short. See ellipse.] (ellipsis. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved November 01, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=ellipsis) Common usage of the device would indicate there were other names which could have continued the list. Indeed they would have. As to young Mr. Trapani, I doubt he or anyone else perceived a slight to him on my part, intentional or otherwise. If I am in error, he may feel free to address this with me at any time. He and his father have my affection and respect. I'll take the risk of simply standing by any and all of my prior posts which may have mentioned him by name. I err regularly, as a referee and a human being, but, again, I'll just run the risk of standing by my reputation, such as that may be.
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nemo
Blademaster
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Posts: 729
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Post by nemo on Nov 1, 2006 21:10:48 GMT -6
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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Post by kd5mdk on Nov 1, 2006 21:29:00 GMT -6
I wonder if anyone here would gain from a list of the high level referees who have achieved noteable fencing success. Sharon Everson springs to mind from the very top of my head.
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Post by Aldo N on Nov 1, 2006 23:19:36 GMT -6
Actually, I believe Bill Oliver achieved a measure of success in his competitive years...
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Post by ElCaribe on Nov 1, 2006 23:29:13 GMT -6
OK Giorgio with all this talk about philosophy, you obviously are uneducated in true philosophic greatness. I expected better of you. Perhaps because of my American Education I am expecting too much of you. I assume we have all had the advantages of an American class education, I need to be more careful of that assumption. Now here are some quotes from truly great philosophers, some of their best work (although I fully admit I am not influenced by the pre-Socratics as much as I should be yet I am currently reading Thales and Heraclitus-I actually am an expert on Zeno): "A flute without holes is not a flute, and a donut without a hole is a Danish" - Bill Murray "I am what I am and that's all that I am" - Popeye the sailor man "To do it to be" - Descartes "To be is to do" - Sartre "Do be do be do" - Sinatra "We are the people our parents warned us about" - J.W. (Jimmy) Buffett "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy" author unknown but truly famous Marty Wysocki
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nemo
Blademaster
mobilis in mobili
Posts: 729
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Post by nemo on Nov 2, 2006 8:01:17 GMT -6
for El Caribe Have an exalt on me...
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Jett
Maitre
On the back![ss:Default]
Posts: 112
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Post by Jett on Nov 2, 2006 8:35:41 GMT -6
"Do be do be do" - Sinatra Also said by Scooby Doo
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Post by Flamberge on Nov 2, 2006 20:33:10 GMT -6
OK, everybody, this will be my last reply ... on this topic. I feel bad in hijacking a thread started by Giuseppina on an interesting subject and then going off onto tangential discussions which have little to do with the main topic presented by her. DavidSierra with his last intervention is kind enough to recognize that Giuseppina's letter presented "an extraoridinarily well written account from a viewpoint that was fascinating." I am glad he did appreciate her contribution and I thank him for his words also on behalf of Pietro's mom. But then David goes on the old refrain which frankly at this point is getting too boring. There is no more simple way to tell him that he did not, does not, and probably never will understand that what she said is not what he thinks. However to David and those who chose to be obtuse like him, I must admit also that I found myself in similar situations of misunderstanding both on Escrime Info and on Schermaonline, the French and Italian forum equivalent of Fencing.net, proving that the world of fencing is the same all over, harboring in its midst people of great dedication, intense passion, but limited understanding of the discourse, or tolerance for an open debate of ideas. The situation in both cases was similar to the current discord, mutatis mutandis [and since now we all know that David is "quite well educated" I am sure that he'll understand the finer points of my legalese] On Escrime Info the issue became my "provocative" suggestion which I posted on Fencing.net to adopt English as the official language of fencing instead of French. No need to explain the reaction by French "David-equivalent" even if I did have some supporters and a fair audience to my explanatory post. On Schermaonline the reaction was to a nice article by Jeff Bukantz, a former top American foil fencer, a well recognized and accomplished international referee, and a good writer, son of a top foil fencer and hall of fame referee, Danny Bukantz. Jeff's article on American Fencing Magazine was about the major change/innovation in foil fencing over the past 25 years, "the bent arm attack," and it recognized the contributions of two iconic figures in Italian fencing, Fabio Dal Zotto and Giovanna Trillini. I posted both the original English version for the curious and linguistically adventurous, and my Italian translation for the hoi polloi. Some Italian fans took umbrage to the choice of words Jeff was quoting that others had said about these two icons. No statement to the contrary on my part explaining ad nauseam the correct interpretation of who had said what to whom could calm the hot spirits. Not even a kind explanation by Jeff, repeating what I had said, could work, proving, like in this case, that if you don't want to understand you'll never understand and that there is a fundamental lack of education to discourse and acceptance of debating ideas among some individuals associated with the sport of fencing, in Europe and in US. This said, our David attributes to me some skills, as he so generously puts, but seeing the misuse he makes of the English language, I'm not sure I understand him correctly, nor that he really knows what he is saying. I assume that his invitation to "cut it out," twice, is just that, i.e., an invitation... which I politely decline as I am not inclined to take his advice as to what to do with my opinions and those of others, including his. David's peremptory tone in telling me what to do or not to do, is uncalled for since he holds no authority over me as an individual or as a member of this forum. I am always open to debate and change my opinion if proven wrong. Fiat (not the cars, I hope this is clear) don't work with me. As to my differences with Schlager7 I find myself in the awkward position to have to explain a joke... afterwards... always a bit of embarrassment for both, so I'll try to curb my elliptical sense of humor which sometimes is not for general consumption or appreciation. But when humor is concerned, I must thank my dear friend Marty and his attempt to bring some levity and humor to something which risks to go way out of line, and put Nemo to sleep forever. Your alternative to lobotomy is indeed much better... And next time we have lunch together, instead of talking of oil exploration, fencing, bad referees, etc., we'll go over our pre Socratic friends. I'll bring a favorite book describing them in modern and contemporary terms and I'll read some passages to you. We'll both have a ball, I guarantee you! I just wish I had thought of them earlier on, instead of using the Socratic method [question and answer] to explain what Giuseppina did say and what she did not say. Maybe this confusion would have been resolved sooner... And yet, who knows? Thank you everyone, those who agree with what Giuseppina said in her letter, and those who disagreed with a single sentence and my attempts to explain the obvious. Stay tuned for new chapters... You'll have fun! Ah, and don't forget to compliment Giuseppina when you see her around... she's not holding any grudge, but I'm sure that she'll be happy to hear in person that you understood and liked what she wrote. One final point that has not much to do with all this. If you have not yet done so, get a copy of Jeff Bukantz book "Closing the Distance," his life's journey in the world of fencing but even more the chronicle of his growth from under his father huge shadow. He tells interesting anecdotes about fencing AND refereeing. A book I strongly recommend also to parents and sons/daughters. Well written, it makes an easy read ... for everyone, I hope! If you don't want to take my words for it, read this review (in English and in German) by Ella Loescher on Schermaonline which Jeff thinks caught the real essence of his book like no one else did: www.schermaonline.com/scherma/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=789 End of Story
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Post by Aldo N on Nov 2, 2006 23:02:39 GMT -6
The only time I will step into one of these affrays. OK, everybody, this will be my last reply ... on this topic. Promise? Imagine the surprise. mutatis mutandis - The necessary changes having been made; having substituted new terms; with respective differences taken into consideration. Interesting you presume the error is in his use of English. He is as free here to call upon you what he will as you are to ignore the call. I think he understood you perfectly. I did not see any "Z"s after Marty's/El Caribe's post. "Question and answer" seems an overly-simplistic description of the Socratic Method. I don't know you, sir. I have gathered some small feel for the personalities at play from 2 or 3 years of posts I have read here. In my opinion, you have performed a very real and noble purpose both here and on Fencing Net by providing the English-reading audience with very fine translations of material from Italian Internet fencing sites. You are to be commended and I hope you will continue. Since I do not know if this next aspect is intentional or not, I will presume the latter. When you post disagreements with others on line, intentional or not, your words take on a distinctly condescending ring. Where with other choices of turns of phrase or of words you might draw readers into a deeper consideration of your argument, your choices often read as inflammatory, and as intentionally so. Ours is not a culture which suffers snobs gladly. Virtue or failing, this is so. A final caution, arguing that you are misunderstood because you have attracted this sort of reaction on websites originating in two other nations and cultures is not likely to convince us the problem is with the other guy. If the one common denominator is you, well... No need to respond as this will be my sole post in this thread.
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Post by Dan Gorman on Nov 2, 2006 23:53:24 GMT -6
I think Aldo's post is dead on. I'm impressed with how clear and level-headed it is.
Dan
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