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Post by fightgal on Jun 3, 2006 12:04:18 GMT -6
I'd really be interested in your responses to this.
I and all fight choreographers and directors are well aware that most performance bladework is slow and 'wide open' compared to true fencing; a real fencer or martial artist is much harder to truly impress than the average, non-fencing audience member, which is generally who you're 'playing to'. Believe it or not, for a time I worked hard at making my sequences as realistic and gritty, etc. as possible, not wanting to pigeonhole myself as a 'girly' fight choreographer. After about a year of intently focusing on this aspect of my work, directors started asking me to 'tone it down' or 'slow it down', 'make it more flashy, you know, like Errol Flynn' and make it, yes, quite bluntly, 'less realistic'. So, just so you know, we often do our best but are hamstringed by the director or producer. But not always...
What bladework, or action sequences in films DO turn you on, that is, satisfy you visually, technically, dramatically? I'd think it would be really interesting to collect your responses on films you really do appreciate, and watch them all as a personal research project.
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Post by thecarpinator on Jun 3, 2006 14:19:49 GMT -6
The Princess Bride, The Three Musketeers (Michael York version), Robin Hood (both Errol Flynn and Gene Kelley versions).... who needs realistic? In "true fencing" often the most effective tactics are also boring. Gimme a lot of bladework.
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Post by vraptor on Jun 7, 2006 1:13:47 GMT -6
The best rapier work I've seen is the Micheal York version of "The Three Musketeers" The Errol Flynn "Robin Hood" was pretty good as well, but I attribute that to Basil Rathbone as much as anyone else. "Excalibur" also had some good broadsword work here and there.
One of the things that makes judging the fencing in movies is the constant hard cutting that's done in the editing process. It breaks up the fight so you don't get to see much technique. That's probaby just as well. It is, after all, more important to move the story along.
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Post by fox on Jun 7, 2006 8:58:24 GMT -6
I would still think the film should dictate the relative accuracy as well as the period/geographic style of the fencing.
I am no authority on the matter, but it would not surprise me if in the entirety of both Kill Bill films there were less than four accurate kendo moves. The film was a cinematic comic book and, thus, was rightfully stylized and exaggerated in the extreme.
The Oliver Reed/Michael York/ et. al. Three Musketeers was probably quite realistic. Real fights are slow, sloppy affairs when viewed by a third party. It was delightfully clumsy, dirty and gritty.
I would think the time and place a production is set in would serve as a good starting point, but there must be departures. The combat serves to advance plot, character, tone, etc.
Then, too, I obviously (note username and avatar) like my flashy swashbuckling moves on stage and in film.
Actually, just as we fencers might nit-pick moves in a swashbuckler, I wonder if our iaido moderator might comment on her thoughts on the accuracy of the swordplay she may have seen in movies set in medieval Japan.
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Post by Oliver on Jun 7, 2006 10:53:59 GMT -6
The Duellists (1978) Starring: Keith Carradine, Harvey Keitel Director: Ridley Scott Reccommended to me by John Monohan. An amazing movie, acting, script, cinematography. Great to watch not just for the bladework but also for a realistic glimpse into the minds of the crazy bastards.
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Post by Emily Egan on Jun 7, 2006 13:37:41 GMT -6
From the top of my head the films that stand out in my mind are The last Samurai, The Twilight Samurai, and The Seven Samurai (Kurosawa). In The Last Samurai I liked the training scenes, but Tom's attempt to do an iai form while silhouetted against the setting sun was laughably lame. However one of the very best example of iai in film never made it into the final edit, but you can see it if you have The Last Samurai 2-disk full-screen edition DVD. Go to the Special Features disk, and under Deleted Scenes choose The Beheading. No, this isn't an execution, nor is it kaishyaku (assisting at seppuku), it is an encounter on the street.
thecarpinator said something that caught my eye, namely "In "true fencing" often the most effective tactics are also boring." I am in total agreement with this statement. In general the more advanced practitioner will seem the more boring, especially to those who do not do it.
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Post by fightgal on Jun 7, 2006 18:27:39 GMT -6
One of the things that makes judging the fencing in movies is the constant hard cutting that's done in the editing process. It breaks up the fight so you don't get to see much technique. That's probaby just as well. It is, after all, more important to move the story along. Speaking as a fight choreographer, what you're actually seeing is most likely all there is. Instead of setting a fight sequence and then cutting it, what you're seeing is tiny little exchanges that were filmed individually and then edited together. This is done most heavily in situations where one of the actors either can't or won't do enough blade work to do any more than a few strokes at a time reliably. Next time you watch something, start noticing how often we can't see one of the star's faces, you're seeing him/her from the back - that's a double. Another trick is to film close enough over the shoulder of the opponent of the lead actor (whose face is showing) that the double/stuntman's body blocks out most of the bladework, you just see tips flying, and usually lots of parries on the double's side. This is safer and easier to stage when there's a lack of experience or whatever on the star's part; a stunt-double will be technically equipped to parry 'for REAL' if they need to, or adjust for sloppiness! This is probably done much more than you'd think. As to why a star couldn't or wouldn't do their own blade work, that varies; time constraints, injuries, general clumsiness (some people just don't move prettily), fear of the blade (it happens), massive ego.... although lately the massive ego trend has been more in the direction of practicing enough to do longer takes of bladework, such as Antonio Banderas doing all his own in the Zorro films, or at least the first one. He actually trained for several months for that (I'm not saying his work is exceptional, just that he had the hutzpa to work on it himself, apparently he insisted).
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Post by schlager7 on Jun 7, 2006 19:28:27 GMT -6
I like different swordfighting scenes for different reasons (same with films).
I'm not terribly knowledgeable on Japanese sword arts, but I love Seven Samurai on many levels (the swordplay being one).
For fencing (as in non-lethal, non-duel, I like The Fencing Master, a Spanish film based on the novel of the same name by Arturo Perez-Riverte. Why? It shows fencing instruction (with good and poor students). The lessons are often shown in shots with the camera pulled far enough back that both fencers and their blades are seen completely. For my money, that told me they had faith in their performers and the choreography!
More fancifully, Scaramouche with Stuart Granger, because he looks so perfectly clumsy and off-balance when he is first learning.
For horror I can feel down my spine, Ring of Steel, for beginning with a kind of re-creation of the Smirnov accident. (Every fencer's fear).
For duels, I side with Oliver, The Duelists, both for varied techniques and great depictions of the mindsets.
My special favorite is the 1930s Romeo & Juliet with Leslie Howard (and Merle Oberon?) as Romeo (Howard) chases Tybalt (Basil Rathbone IIRC) up some exterior stairs and finishes him in classic rapier-and-cloak technique.
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Post by thecarpinator on Jun 7, 2006 22:25:38 GMT -6
Oh yeah, I also like all of those blind samurai movies they show in IFC on Saturdays... that dude rocks!
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Post by Maupin on Jun 7, 2006 23:08:32 GMT -6
My favorites are The Fencing Master; Zorros old and new; and a scene from Equilibrium.
The Fencing Master had nice fencing overall, not to mention the fact that one of the main fencers is a woman. It also showed why we wear fencing masks.
As far as Zorros, Basil Rathbone's fencing skills of course. The fencing in the Mask of Zorro for its use of surroundings and gymnastics during the duels. There was one scene I remember, but can't find on the DVD. Zorro does a nice lunge forward to stab one guard, then a reverse lunge with the blade backward to take out the guard behind him.
Equilibrium did not involve blades. It was an arms-length duel with pistols, fencing with arms to get a point-in-line.
And, for sheer quirkiness and amusement with no fencing style or realism: The fencing dummy in Sherlock Holmes' Smarter Brother.
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Post by JEC on Jun 7, 2006 23:18:56 GMT -6
I have several samurai movies, but by far the best movies are from Kurosawa, the most westerner of the Japanese directors.
I truly like Seven Samurai as well, but it is funny that the samurai that was considered as the master did not had prior experience in the blade arts according to the commentary from the American expert. I also have Yohimbo, Hidden Fortress and Sanjuro.
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Post by Dan Gorman on Jun 8, 2006 1:31:27 GMT -6
Sure you're not thinking of the Princess Bride? When Inigo Montoya is making his way through the castle.
Dan
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