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Post by MTD on Jun 7, 2004 15:00:10 GMT -6
From another thread -- Why can't we all work to get some real fencing strips (the rigid metallic section, not the buckling metallic rolling carpets that do more harm than good) to be put in place and used at tournaments, rather than duck tape on parquet? I know it costs money, but like we adapted to the electrical equipment from dry fencing, we should work towards the real fencing piste. Judging would be easier, knees and other body parts would be protected, and events would look like the real thing. As we are now it is like playing soccer/football in an open field where the goal posts are marked by rocks. Yes, metal strips owned by the Gulf Coast Division, or owned by somebody accommodating in the area, would be nice. But, there are just a few measly little details which have yet to be surmounted. As background information, there is good reason to believe that two "copper" pistes were purchased from the east cost and transported to the Gulf Coast Division. Popular legend has suggested these both belonged to the Division, but there's some eyewitness testimony available that one of them actually belongs to the Rice Fencing Club (and spent a lot of time recently in College Station on a loan which took a while to get finished in a way which involved the strip passing through San Marcos!). RFC had that strip as recently as last Wednesday. It was last seen in public during the 2004 Van Buskirk. The other of these two strips, the one still presumed actually to be the Division's, was last believed to be in poor condition, and nobody has announced its current whereabouts or disposition. (The four Officers of the Division don't have it and don't know who does.) Now, Flamberge's post mentioned metal mesh or screen pistes, and solid metal pistes (with it clear Flamberge prefers the latter!). These days, there are actually three options available -- fine metal mesh (the old "copper" strips, or equivalents made from different metal), coarse stainless steel mesh (quite durable), and solid. The first two always need some sort of underlayment, which has been paper, carpeting, and carpet padding. The latter is manufactured with a safe bottom surface. The first two are stored rolled, and the latter is stored as a collection of individual "plates" or "panels" (you pick your favorite expression). The actual work of setting up traditional mesh or coarse mesh strips is great, consumes tape, and consumes underlayment if the underlayment is paper. So, the ongoing cost of usage is actually higher than with solid metal. Mesh pistes can be easier to store because they roll. Depending on details, the ongoing cost of ownership might be lower due to lower storage space cost. Each style has its own problems with transportation between storage location and usage location. Now, back to brass tacks (or copper mesh?). It would be great if the Division could own some strips which could be used. As an alternative, a private consortium of individuals, interested clubs, etc. could take this on entirely independently of the Division. Whoever owns them would reasonably charge for usage outside the ownership. It's not clear whether there ought to be a charge for usage within the ownership -- it depends on whether the ongoing expenses get defrayed by the owners or get defrayed in proportion to the usage within the owners. One could argue that Division strips should have their expenses paid by the events in the Division which use them -- but one could also argue that the Division should make them available for tournaments in the Division as a public service to be paid from the income of the Division -- income which might or might not be sufficient if the Division does not try to tax tournaments occurring within the Division. When conductive strips are used by a tournament, without regard to whether they are rented, then somebody has to pay the monetary and non-monetary expenses of putting them into service and taking them back out of service. This might mean arranging adequate transportation and labor for the move from the storage location to the venue, purchasing underlayment and/or patching as may be relevant, arranging for labor and tools for setting the strips up (this labor is a different skill and needs a different sort of mix of people than putting tape on a floor), arranging for labor to take down the strips, and arranging for adequate transportation and labor for the move from the venue to the storage location. (I've seen my share of these various details!) While fencers (with the possible exception of people like Flamberge if the strips are not solid), referees, and even spectators are better off with conductive strips, it does make life a lot harder and possibly a lot more expensive for the organizing committee. This often leaves organizing committees reluctant to arrange conductive strips even if it is an available option. So, while I share Flamberge's love of solid metal strips, I am still trying to imagine the ideal arrangement by which there would be strips available in the Houston area, with reasonable mechanisms for the strips to be used at tournaments without some offsetting burden or cost. I'm not saying this is an insoluble problem, just that I don't have a solution and it's not among the problems I've been trying to solve of late. I invite someone else to come up with a great solution.
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Post by schlager7 on Jun 7, 2004 15:40:12 GMT -6
I've been around and around on this topic, myself. Personally, I think having grounded strips is a great idea. Like Flamberge (given the best of all possible worlds), I prefer the solid strips. I am of two minds, however, on whether the division should purchase them.
The division currently own two scoring set ups (consisting of a scorebox, two floor cords and two reels each).
Should the division work toward a metal piste as some have wondered (Flamberge, you are not alone) or toward acquiring more conventional strips (scoring set ups)as others have asked? It may boil down to trying to determine the greatest need at this time. I certainly do not profess to know that.
The division has finite resources and they must be allocated as wisely as possible. Of course, the bad part is that you rarely know if you have chosen wisely until it is too late. Generally, you do the best you can.
I would be genuinely interested in hearing considered opinions on this topic.
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Post by Flamberge on Jun 7, 2004 16:54:01 GMT -6
Thank you MTD and Schlager for your comments. Since I never tire to say that I don't know much about fencing, but I like to learn, let me first list what I have found out and what I like about the description of the pistes. I also ask that we keep the discussion simple and practical without too many ifs, buts, disclaimers, etc. 1. Roll-up piste I learned from Augie and others of the perils of the roll-up type of piste with metallic over rubber back. If not properly stretched/secured to the floor, if/when it buckles it can cause severe damage to the fencer. This is the main reason I exclude it. I also understand that some time ago Hamza bought one or two "used" piste of this type on behalf of the division in Germany. The charge was for "new" piste and their current location is a mystery. 2. Aluminum fencing piste in FIE standards I found these two interesting products: (a) Aluminum fencing piste in FIE Standards The following website describes the product: www.multlock-turkey.com/Pist/AluPist.htmIt is a self interlocking system of sections, plug & play, with polyethylene backing that can be set up in 5 minutes. (b) Aluminum modular piste by Negrini www.negrini.com/EArtPD2.htmThe advantage I see with this product is that the rectangular panels can be slotted together on either side: along their length or their width. For example: with 16 elements it is possible to make-up a regulation piste 1.8 m. wide and 16 m. long OR two training pistes 1 m. wide and 14.4 m. long. There must be other solutions out there from China or elsewhere which should be evaluated in terms of costs and practicality (i.e., ease of transport and setup). 3. Who should bear the cost At this stage this is an open question, but in the end it should/could be handled by the individual clubs, working together, as some of them do now with the electronic signal equipment and the reels, with the coordination of the Division. We have 17 clubs in the division, and even if just 8 of them contribute with one piste, we would have 8 or 16 (if the Negrini solution is chosen) regular or practice type pistes under the best circumstances and only if MTD coordinates the lend/lease program. All the experts out there and those who know much more than I do, please pitch in.
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Post by MJ WYSOCKI on Jun 8, 2004 8:36:57 GMT -6
Dear Flamberge, good thoughts and questions. One other possibility:at a few tournaments this year we noticed the standard gold colored metalic mesh strip flooring with a carpet pad below. This was a good and cheap way to have a regulation strip flooring with good padding. I would humbly suggest that the division consider this matter seriously, decide the best course of action and after this season (or before) purchase some good strip flooring. Additionally, there is a development grant that the USFA issues yearly. I know of a person who operates a very successful professional grant writing company (I sleep with her). I think that I could get her write and file for the USFA equiptment grant for the division or for a local club. These monies could be used to purchase division strips, or strips for a club that could be used at divisional competitions. Anyway just some thoughts.
Marty Wysocki
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Post by Michael LoParco on Jun 8, 2004 16:12:46 GMT -6
Don't know if this has been mentioned since I don't have alot of time to read all of the messages in detail, just scan them.
I have seen industrial screening used on top of ordinary carpet padding. The beauty is these common materials can be purchased at your local Lowe's or Home Depot. It already comes in a giant roll and only needs to be cut to fit the correct dimensions of fencing piste. (The store does this for you). This is a low cost solution, though I don't have the exact dollar amounts. If someone presses me I will cost it out. I know it is considerably cheaper than other piste solutions. If I recall correctly under $500.00 per piste.
There are also some engineering advantages. The screening does not slip or buckle in response to sudden changes in direction by the fencers since the rubber like material of the padding is "grippy". Since it is cushioned the stresses to the body are greatly reduced. The carpet padding does not at all feel "doughy". The floor is protected from any metallic abrasion by the padding. The drawback is you need double the storage/transportation space since you have two rolls of materials to make a piste instead of one.
I have fenced on these "home made" pistes and love them. As others have stated the copper strips slip and I find the metal ones to be unforgiving and hard on the feet not to mention my fencing shoes.
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Post by Flamberge on Jun 8, 2004 21:53:35 GMT -6
I found these FIE specifications for fencing strips: 1. The conductive strip must be made from metal, metallic mesh or some substance with a base that is conductive. The resistance of the strip, from one end to the other, must not exceed 5 ohms. 2. The conductive strip must cover the whole of the length and breadth of the strip including its extensions, in order to neutralize floor touches. 3. When the strip is mounted on a platform the conductive strip must cover the whole width of the platform. The platform must not exceed 50 cm in height, and must be wider than the fencing strip itself by at least 25 cm on each side. Each end of the podium must be equipped with a gentle slope right down to ground level. 4. Because the amount of wire which the spools can carry is limited, the conductive strip is designed for use on a strip 14 m long; an extension of 1.50–2 m is added at each end of the strip to allow the fencer crossing the rear limits of the strip to retire on an even and unvarying surface. The conductive strip must therefore have a length of 17–18 m. 5. It is preferable to lay the conductive strip on a wooden base with some flexible material between. It must be provided with some device which enables it to be kept well stretched. The wooden bases are 12–15 cm above ground level. Their sides must not be sloping. It is preferable to have a metal strip, screwed down if possible, which will keep down the edges of the conductive strip along the entire length of the base on both sides. 6. The paint used to draw the lines on the conductive strip must not prevent its electrical conductibility, so that a touch made on it at a point where a line occurs is also neutralized. 7. The organizers must have equipment for the immediate repair of the strip available on the spot, so that any hole which may appear in the conductive strip can be repaired immediately. 8. There must be no roller or any sort of obstacle at the ends of the conductive strips/strips which could prevent the fencers from retreating normally. (English version taken from the website of USFencing) The engineers and do-it-yourselves among us will have a field day in building a "home made" strip meeting these conditions, even by skipping the part of the platform. I am against the "rolling piste" because I noticed that they do buckle and wear out unevenly. They have caused problems with knees, ankles, and I notice that at national meetings they are being replaced by the metal piste I advocate. I hope that others can come up with new suppliers of the panels strip to see the pros and cons, including the costs in each case. If fencers find that these pistes feel 'different' they better adapt to them as they had to years back to get used to electrical equipment from dry fencing. Just a thought. You all know more than I do. But I notice that in almost all salles in Europe they have the metal piste in their clubs. And you all know what to expect at major tournaments.
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Post by Michael LoParco on Jun 10, 2004 10:15:17 GMT -6
Flamberge, Nice work on the research. Well, one thing is certain, there is no easy or simple solution. Probably you are correct, the metal panel strips are best since they meet every specification in the rules. They are a bear to work with. I helped Scott Harkey disassemble one and load it into his truck after the Katy Blades Tourny. Yikes! Not fun. The total weight of all panels together is almost 1000 pounds and the cost is about the same. Can you imagine having to put together and pull down 8-12 of these monsters! It would require a small crew to do the work. **SIGH** What to do.
MDL
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Post by Flamberge on Jun 10, 2004 22:11:53 GMT -6
According to the websites I visited, this is what is involved:
1. Turkish panels
Each panel is 1.5 m wide x 1 m long X less than 1 cm thick. Underside is polyethylene. Each panel weighs 18 kg. You need 17 panels for one piste (max resistance over 17 m 1 ohm (less than 5 ohms which is max per FIE rules)
2. Negrini dual use panels
Each panel is 1.8 m x 1 m x 3.c cm. Underside is plywood. Each panel weighs 32 kg. 16 panels make either one regular piste (1.8 m x 16 m) or two practice pistes (1 m x 14.4 m) depending how they are attached together (long or short side). Max resistance is 3.2 ohms.
3. Uhlmann roll-up and panels
(a) roll-up 1.55 m x 17 m costs EU 1,355. Case for same EU 150. I believe it requires clamps to stretch and suitable anchoring to the floor.
(b) panels 1.5 m x 1 m x 2 cm cost EU 200 each panel 2 m x 1 m x 2 cm cost EU 255 each panel
4. Others
I saw at some national tournaments panels made in China but I don't know the manufacturer or the seller. There got to be several more and each one must have pluses and minuses. It would be nice to know more about each of these cases and come up with a best scenario case.
The issue of transporting, installing, and removing the pistes must be considered in detail. Then we can consider who is going to do what for whom and for how much. A club without a permanent location would have a much harder situation, depending on the mobility of these contraptions. But even the roll-up piste requires a suitable anchoring system to the floor to prevent the dreaded buckling.
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Post by MTD on Jun 11, 2004 0:12:22 GMT -6
The standard roll-up mesh makes no particular demands on the room or the floor where it is deployed. It just consumes a roll or two of duct tape or gaffer's tape to deploy one strip. There is a tedious process of putting down paper underlayment, or stretching out carpet underlayment -- the stretching process usually involving anchoring one end, then slowly moving a heavily loaded upside-down table along, and taping appropriately as one goes. Then without regard to what the underlyment was, the strip itself needs to be stretched while laying with the loaded table process. Normally (depending on the behavior of the strip), one to two human bodies are on the table, and two people drag the table slowly the length of the strip, while yet two more people tape the strip down as this happens. It's a really tedious, boring process (unless you are dead weight on the table, and have something like taking a nap or reading a book to pass the time), and for the people dragging the table, it is a very fatiguing process. I'm still waiting for my turn to do the dead weight job.
The coarse-mesh stainless steel seen (on carpet pad) at some SSCC events and Sectionals this season is less prone to small ripples, hence there is less which needs to get stretched out -- it's simply more dimensionally stable. I don't know if any maker sells such strips. However Scott Harkey (Sword Masters) would certainly be willing to discuss what it would take for the correctly sized piece of stainless steel mesh to end up in your hands.
For putting down and picking up the strip, the Turkish panels are a breeze. The only really annoying thing about the Turkish panels is that you've got 306 kg of panels occupying a 1 m by 1.5 m by ca. 10 cm volume when you store them and when you transport them all the way between storage and the spot where the strip is actually being layed out. It's probably a toss-up whether it is easier to transport and store that third of a ton of panels, or a slightly lighter rolled mesh which also requires storage of underlayment or expense of one-time underlayment. It depends on whether you do or don't have a small but tall spot in a closet. Trying to make the panels live in a standard closet in a house is probably hopeless, while a roll would be possible even if intolerable.
And, remember, multiply all the headaches by the number of pistes!
Obviously, the perfect solution is something semipermanently installed.
(Now you see why I opened this thread speaking of unsolved practical difficulties, and invited someone to find the perfect solution! This thing with metal strips is definitely a love/hate relationship.)
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Post by Flamberge on Jun 11, 2004 16:38:54 GMT -6
Excerpt from a study about injuries in fencing: www.exra.org/FencingChptr.htmEquipment and facilities 5. Do not allow practices or competitions on concrete surfaces without adequate cushioning. 6. When raised fencing strips are used, they should be of low height and adequate width to reduce risk of ankle injuries. 7. In practices and competitions, wooden and rubber surfaces should be cleaned at regular intervals, and fencers should wipe shoes on a damp towel before beginning each session of activity, to reduce the risk of slipping due to dusty or dirty surfaces. 8. Copper fencing strips should be fully stretched and firmly anchored to prevent "bunching." 9. Electric cord reels and other potential hazards (including officials) should be placed so they do not present a hazard to a fencer during a rapid retreat or when leaving the confines of the fencing strip during action. 10. The national governing body sports medicine committees should work with shoe manufacturers to develop an affordable fencing shoe that is designed specifically for the stresses of fencing. 11. Continue research on better breaking characteristics of weapon blades. Point 8. above is what interest me in regards to the roll-up strips. I've noticed the "bunching" of the strips and after MTD's detailed explanation of how they are set up, and reading Uhlmann's catalog, it's evident that the roll-up strips should be ancored with the supplied hardware, not with tape, or else it will "bunch." My question is how do you ancor -- temporarily -- the harware to the flooring without permanent damage to the floor. My conclusion is that the panels (Turkish because of weight, and the Negrini's because of flexibility) are the ideal solutions if we want to have a piste of any kind. Ideally combining the weight of the Turkish panels with the flexibility of the Negrini panels would provide the best of both worlds. The logistics for setting up a fencing venue could be simplified if more than one club could provide 2 or 3 pistes each, and cooperate with each other. It could be a start ...
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Post by Flamberge on Jun 12, 2004 23:50:56 GMT -6
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