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Post by Aldo N on May 17, 2006 23:17:38 GMT -6
I got this the other day from Bill Towry:Another lost trophy is the Connecticut Trophy. It was given by AFLA-USFA at the same time for the Division with the largest increase in membership for the previous year. North Texas won it two years in a row. While we had it we bought as new silver band for names of the future winners. I still have a photo of it some where, but it would take many hours of searching to find just the photo. We have contacted USFA and several individuals, but the trophy has been forgotten. Dare I ask the last time that trophy was spotted? |
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Post by schlager7 on Jun 3, 2006 20:00:59 GMT -6
Dare I venture into the obvious by suggesting that someone get the results from the Van Buskirk in the year of the events disappearance and contact the last know winner? No doubt it weighting down a box in someones storage or collecting dust on some shelf. Michael wrote that in June of 2004. Now, almost right at two years later, with thanks to Glenn Weathington (who actually saved documents from his time as Gulf Coast Division and Southwest Section Chair) I do have a list of the Van Buskirk Cup winners, from the very first tournament (before it was a memorial) until the cup steps out of history. 1968 - Ed Carfagno 1969 - Ed Carfagno 1970 - Steven Farid 1971 - Edwin Hurst 1972 - Edwin Hurst 1973 - Tim Graham 1974 - Robert Shelby 1975 - Chris Trammell 1976 - Chris Trammell 1977 - Brian Reed 1978 - Martin Johnsen 1979 - Chris Trammell 1980 - Clarence McCraw 1981 - Martin Johnsen 1982 - Clarence McCraw 1983 - Clarence McCraw 1984 - Clarence McCraw Don't suppose anyone out there has at least a photo of this trophy, do they? |
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Post by schlager7 on Jun 22, 2006 22:37:44 GMT -6
Well, I'm still no closer to the Van Buskirk Cup, but I recently made some headyway on the Franks Sabre Trophy. The first tournament was in 1948. When the same fencer won the trophy in 1948 & 1949, they retired it and gave it to him. His name is Steve Farid and he is a very nice man. The next Franks Trophy was used from 1950 to about 1979. As to it, I recently got an email response from Robert Shelby (whom I had written to try and get a photo or two of it). He wrote: It is good to hear from you again. I recently read your excellent on-line history of the Gulf Coast Division fencing. I will have some further comments and suggestions as to corrections later in this letter.
Yes, I have the W.A. Franks Memorial Saber trophy (actual spelling engraved on the award). Since I had won it so many times and the condition of the trophy was pretty bad (I think the plan was to get a new one) the board voted to award it to me. As the 1979 season was really my swan song year, I don't know if the plan was carried out. I have a feeling (not a solid memory) that I might have won it in 79. I don't remember and there is no
engraving on the trophy to that effect. The following is a list of the names and years won as listed on the trophy:
1950-W.T.Brown
1951-H.M.Lattimore
1952-W.T.Brown
1953-J.P.Baird (Jack, a great man and good friend)
1954-J.P.Baird
1955-W.T.Brown
1956-A.Mercado (Arnold [Sonny} who taught me to fence)
1957-A.Mercado
1958-J.Baird
1959-A.Mercado
1960-A.Mercado
1961-C.D.Reed (Charlies)
1962-C.D.Reed
1963-R.T.Shelby (me)
1964-R,T.Shelby
1965-R.T.Shelby
1966-R.T.Shelby
1967-A.Mercado
1968-A.Mercado
1969-R.T.Shelby
1970-J.Witherspoon (Joseph P. Witherspoon III)
1971-R.T.Shelby
1972-R.T.Shelby
1973-R.T.Shelby
1974-R.Hurlby (misengraved! Should have been Hurley, not Hurlby! Dr.Hurley
was suprised as anyone at winning a sabre meet)
1975-C.Trammel
1976-R.T.Shelby
1977-B.Reed (Brian, Roland's son. By now he was getting dangerous)
1978-C.McGraw (Clarence. Also, a great tennis player)
I will try and get you some photos of the "old pot" and e-mail or otherwise get them to you. The object in question is app. 23 inches tall including the fencing figure on top. I have wanted to get it repaired for years and have just put it off. The repair will be costly and a new trophy (near exact copy) is going to be very expensive!
Needless to say, I may suggest he get an opinion from a certain fencer/silversmith I know before plunking down his hard-earned ducats.  Anyway, if the plan to hold a revived Franks Memorial works out, it would be nice to at least be able to show off images of the old trophy. (Re-creation may take more time that we will have in the first year). Meanwhile, there is the matter of the Van Buskirk Trophy and trying to learn if there was a third Franks trophy used from 1980 until the tournament was discontinued circa 1989... |
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Post by kd5mdk on Jun 22, 2006 23:51:36 GMT -6
Thanks for all your research! I hope the Franks Memorial does come back, and that a new trophy can enter the scene.
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Post by fox on Jun 23, 2006 10:13:31 GMT -6
Thanks for all your research! I hope the Franks Memorial does come back, and that a new trophy can enter the scene. Ditto. Also, the picture of the old Southwest Conference trophy is pretty sweet. May I presume that if Mr. Shelby sends you a shot of the Franks will you run it here, as well? |
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nemo
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Post by nemo on Jun 23, 2006 10:38:55 GMT -6
I think schlager7 will find the lost ark of the covenant before he finds the Van Buskirk Cup!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by August Skopik on Jun 23, 2006 11:54:06 GMT -6
For those of you that like history, Clarence McGraw was an even better football player/sprinter. He did not take up fencing until he was declared legally handicapped because of a very severe multiple leg fracture that they could not fix. It slowed him down so much that we could then see him move. I heard from Clarence and understand he is up in Denton, Tx.
Brian Reed went to San Jose State, and attended courtesy of a Neil Diamond supplemented scholarship that went to support the fencing program. He was an All-American there.
We did not have a special Franks Memorial trophy when I was involved from 1982 to 1989, although Glen Weathington was the chair for 88 and 89. In fact, we did not have the saber support and had to run epee tournaments. The by-laws said that the first tournament of the year was the Franks.
Spindletop had a nice trophy for the Columbiad, and it was a Knights of Columbus engraved sword. I won the first several, and had the trophy in my garage for 9+ years and gave it back to them several years ago. They had told me to keep it back in the early 90s, but there were different people involved.
We began the tradition of giving out fancy beer steins after several years at the behest of Hurleys, Glass, Moureau, etc. It did fill out my beer-drinking needs.
The best story I have on trophies was when Glen gave me the third place silver platter after winning the Sectional foil in Shawnee. Randall Sims was 15 and he was furious. His platter was bigger winning the U19, and he was yelling that I was cheated. I had just gone the entire year in major area foil tournaments, (Bragging Rights, Duel at Dallas, Yorrick, Pouj, Van Buskirk and Sectionals), losing one bout in the semis pools at sectionals. I honestly did not care. At the pizza place that night, John Shanks and Dave Huskey along with Glen revealed the surprise. Randall had to apologize.
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Post by schlager7 on Jun 23, 2006 20:36:20 GMT -6
You know, Augie, one of these I really just HAVE TO keep your beer stein full while a tape recorder just rolls along.
...then take you and your scrap book to the nearest Kinko's!
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Post by Aldo N on Jun 24, 2006 7:48:21 GMT -6
I think schlager7 will find the lost ark of the covenant before he finds the Van Buskirk Cup!!!!!!!!!!!!! He might find it sooner if you helped him. Perhaps you could go look on the Forbidden Board? |
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Post by kd5mdk on Jun 24, 2006 10:08:57 GMT -6
Everybody knows the Ark of the Covenant is in Ethopia.
The Arc of the Covenant is what happens when you touch it, though.
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nemo
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Post by nemo on Jun 26, 2006 13:47:58 GMT -6
I missed this the first time I read it: 1974-R.Hurlby (misengraved! Should have been Hurley, not Hurlby! Dr.Hurley
was suprised as anyone at winning a sabre meet) A Hurley fencing.............. sabre?  ?? |
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Post by kd5mdk on Jun 26, 2006 15:24:29 GMT -6
A Hurley winning sabre, to be exact.
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Post by schlager7 on Jun 27, 2006 8:17:14 GMT -6
We did not have a special Franks Memorial trophy when I was involved from 1982 to 1989, although Glen Weathington was the chair for 88 and 89. In fact, we did not have the saber support and had to run epee tournaments. The by-laws said that the first tournament of the year was the Franks. Augie is correct. There records I have seen for Texas, in general, show that sabre participation plummeted from the early 1980s into the VERY late 1990s. My guess is the (expensive) switch to electric fencing and the changes in technique it caused ran a bunch of folks off. Also, now that I have been able to track the opening dates of the first dozen or so Franks Tournaments, yes, they were all pretty much in August or mid-September. At the briefly revived Columbiad of the spring of 2004 (the Spindletop Cavaliers' 1-Touch epee tournament), the sword was back. They got squeezed out of a time slot on the 2004-2005 season. Rita destroyed their space for the 2005-2006 season. It is my hope that they will bring it back for this next season. I have a photo of the Columbiad Sword (somewhere). I will try to find it and add it to this thread. I got some emails from Bob Shelby last night along with four different shots of the Franks Memorial Trophy. They are a little large so I'll have to whittle off some pixels for posting purposes here. It definitely shows that it has been through many hands in two decades, but my wife (a silversmith by trade) was already making comments on the different repair and restoration possibilities. I'll try to take the one full-body shot and post it tonight or tomorrow. For scale, he put a fencing weapon next to it (a sabre, of course.) |
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Post by fox on Jul 6, 2006 7:04:19 GMT -6
I have a photo of the Columbiad Sword (somewhere). I will try to find it and add it to this thread. I got some emails from Bob Shelby last night along with four different shots of the Franks Memorial Trophy. They are a little large so I'll have to whittle off some pixels for posting purposes here. Just curious. Will we get to see either trophy soon? |
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Post by vraptor on Jul 6, 2006 13:47:04 GMT -6
Remember. There was a time when sabre was fun. You could have phrases, compound attacks, second-intention attacks, the works.
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Post by DavidSierra on Jul 6, 2006 14:02:49 GMT -6
*chuckle* you still can. I find it a continual source of amusement to keep reading about the 'death of sabre' or how it has degenerated into nothing but people running at each other. Believe me, modern sabre, fenced well, is just as full of phrases, compound attacks and second-intention actions as any other weapon. More so than foil these days that's for sure.
Of course, bad sabre, fenced poorly, is pretty ugly to watch. But then, seeing two foilists close distance and jab at each other until a light goes off isn't?
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nemo
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Post by nemo on Jul 6, 2006 14:31:55 GMT -6
Just curious. Will we get to see either trophy soon? don't encourage him |
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Post by katyblades on Jul 6, 2006 18:52:12 GMT -6
I met Sonny Mercado at the Nationals, and he told me that he was the individual that began the Van Buskirk. We traded a few stories, and I told him that I have won in three separate decades and an event in all three weapons, (epee, foil and team saber). I was the anchor of the team saber and had to fence the last bout against Paul Anderson to win so I count it.
The Columbiad trophy is a Knights of Columbus sword. Pretty cool. I had never seen one before and then it was at my house for about 8 years while the Columbiad slept.
I like saber now. The only issue is dealing with the remise within the riposte time. You don't have continual running back and forth and flipping of coins, and if you have a good point and timing you can stop almost any preparation of attack. It has lost the fleche and the prettiest move in saber, the head/flank fleche on the riposte. David directed my bout in College Station at an SSCC in one of my first saber bouts electric and that move just came out about 5 times. I did the moves to perfection but my score was getting lower the entire time.
What electric saber has done is spread the wealth on where the good saber fencers end up. We just need to build on that for this section.
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Post by schlager7 on Jul 6, 2006 20:23:15 GMT -6
The photos Bob Shelby sent me of the Franks Cup were VERY detailed (and VERY large). They would be a bit much for our purposes so I took one and reduced it to about 8% of its original size. It is in some disrepair (nothing that can't be undone or remade with time and effort), but then, it was passed from fencer to fencer from 1950-1979. Bob stated the dark base is a plastic or similar material. The next segment has a bronze plate that carries the names of all the winners from 1950-1978. There was no more room for the 1979 winner's name. (Just a guess, it is likely one reason he was allowed to keep it in 1979). The bowl originally had three handles, two remain. There is a fencing figure at the top, missing the off hand and weapon, which I am told resembled a foil.  While it does not read in this shot, the bowl is engraved with the tournament name. |
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Post by Aldo N on Jul 7, 2006 9:18:58 GMT -6
Given the sabre as a frame of reference (I do realize the end of the sabre is cropped off), that is a pretty fair sized trophy!
I do seem to recall seeing more like that back in the late 50s and early 60s.
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nemo
Blademaster
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Post by nemo on Jul 7, 2006 10:00:03 GMT -6
Gee
how...
lovely
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Post by Prudence on Jul 7, 2006 19:24:18 GMT -6
I think it's a nice trophy  Anyway, sabre is fun to watch...sometimes, and you're right about bad foil.. not very fun to watch either.. that's why epee is number one in my book. I feel like I don't have any limits when I fence epee, plus the bouts always seem more intense to me.
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Post by Aldo N on Jul 8, 2006 10:47:51 GMT -6
I can see why your "karma" on this forum is a -5! |
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Post by kd5mdk on Jul 9, 2006 22:45:37 GMT -6
Bad epee is pretty bad too. My D3WE pool at Summer Nationals made me long for the SW Section. Our Ds, Es and Us are much better epee fencers (on average) and have far better tournament skills than what I saw there.
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Post by Prudence on Jul 10, 2006 9:54:25 GMT -6
Yeah I don't understand how that can be possible.. I mean when I go to competitions I usually fence girls that have much higher ratings then me (E-05) but we're pretty much on the same page when it comes to skill level.
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Anyway, sabre is fun to watch...sometimes, and you're right about bad foil.. not very fun to watch either.. that's why epee is number one in my book. I feel like I don't have any limits when I fence epee, plus the bouts always seem more intense to me.