The Mystery of the Van Buskirk Cup

[kd5mdk]

E05 isn't much of a higher rating than U, which I presume you mean. It means they took first in a 6 fencer competition last year, or 8th in a 15, etc. In effect, except older Es (04, 03, 02), there is no rating between yours and theirs.

[Prudence]

No I have an E-05, not a U.. but I fence Cs and up all the time. That's what I meant to say. For example a lot of U's and E's are actually pretty good in our region and they can beat higher rated fencers from other parts of the country. For example in Austin.. Summer Nationals 2003 I beat this one girl from NY who was number 1 in our pool and she was a B.. I was just a U and some lady asked me where I was from and why I was still a U.

[Clarence O McCraw]

Hello, I am the elusive Clarence O. McCraw and I am here to set the record straight. No, I am not lying about the trophy, I am a gentleman. I actually learned more in my fencing career than how to parry and reposte. I delivered the trophy to Roland at the Belaire Club before I left Houston. As was stated earlier, I won the trophy three times and my name was on the last two slots on the base. I gave it back to Roland so the names from past years could be preserved. I was supposed to get a replica because, and I will repeat once again, that award meant more to me than anything else I did in my fencing career. I won more impressive tourneys, but to win the Van B. in front of the olympian himself, the last man that he saw win it....... I will carry that feeling to my grave. So, if I had the trophy, I would send you a pic of it and the list of names. There is some bad info in the threads above. The trophy was not a loving cup. It was a silver bowl, engraved with the tourney name and Harold Van B.'s name and I think the year he was on the Olympic team. The bowl inside was showing wear and needed to be replated. The base was black and square and on each side (4), I think there were 10 name plates. My name was number 37, 39 and 40. Also, the Van B. tee shirts. The shirts were done by a fencer and my friend named Gary Watashe. We fenced at Michele's school (who I was glad to see a reply from and I would like to contact Tom Outwin). In the larger picture above, I am the fencer facing forward. Gary took a picture of me fencing one night and drew the picture from there. The smaller picture is from a movie poster of the movie "The Duellist". Has anyone thought of contacting Brian Reed, Roland's son and see if they found it after Roland passed. I was very sorry to hear about that, Roland was a good friend and mentor. I will come back to this site to check replies, as there are a lot of people from a long time ago that I would like to contact. Thank you.

[fox]

I enjoyed the stuff on the T-shirts. I, too, caught the connection with the image from The Duelists (I have the poster of the movie up in my "game room.")

Interesting disparity of descriptions of the trophy. Is it possible, like the Franks, that there was more than one over time?

I haven't seen anyone on this forum say you were lying. What happened to it is, as they say, a mystery. Schlager7 has been turning up a lot of names from the past (and several, like yourself, have posted here). Perhaps he has or is trying to track down Reed's son. I noticed he turned up that you were one of the last winners of the Franks. There was no accusation and he located the current/last owner.

(AND GOT PICS! Gotta be the cyber version of finding the Easter egg!)

I think this whole project has been a lot of fun to follow. Maybe the Van Buskirk is lost forever, but I enjoy reading the posts from all of you guys.

If I may toss out a possibility (and I was nowhere near Texas in those days and can't know)... you stated the Van Buskirk was in some need of replating, etc.

My brother used to own a jewelry repair business in Maryland. He said it was not uncommon for items to be dropped off for repair and, once the work was done, find they could not re-contact the owners who, for whatever reason never showed. He told me some items sat in shop for years until someone who was missing it finally tracked down where they "left it" (or where a divorced spouse, now deceased relative, etc left it).

It very easily could have been left at a business or in some other third party's care and "forgotten" and "lost." Some posts I've read on this board seem to indicate record keeping has not always been the Gulf Coast Division's forte.

I wonder if there was any company the division regularly went to for trophies (and/or repair) in the 1970s & 1980s.

Anyway, that's just something I thought I'd toss out.

[Aldo N]

Even if he locates the Van Buskirk trophy, there's the Connecticut trophy and all those SW Conference trophies...

there may be more than one Easter egg in the backyard.

[katyblades]

Hey Texas Flash,

I noticed that Gary had you as a lefty in the picture. Did you pose that way, or did he change it? I tried telling everyone you did not have it, the trophy was missing when I took the reins in 1985 as Division chair. We even talked about the trophy in Alburquque in 87' or 88'. I don't know where Brian is, but maybe Roland took it to get worked on.

John Dubose came by my club last spring, and Dwayne Blakely fences as often as once a week. I saw David Adams at last year's NCAAs. Did you see that Tim Glass won the Vet 50 epee at Nationals?

I think that the year you won the trophy was my first Van Buskirk. Was that the year that the top saber guys received byes to the second round of foil? Was that also the year that you received the trophy bringing a saber over your head in triumph. You certainly deserved it.

[schlager7]

Clarence wrote:

"The trophy was not a loving cup. It was a silver bowl, engraved with the tourney name and Harold Van B.'s name and I think the year he was on the Olympic team. The bowl inside was showing wear and needed to be replated. The base was black and square and on each side (4), I think there were 10 name plates. My name was number 37, 39 and 40."

I looked back at what Roland sent me:

"The official, original Van Buskirk Sabre Trophy, [was] a large double handled silver cup…"

I wonder if the discrepancy is more a matter of word choice than anything else. I know that I read Roland's description and interpreted it as meaning either a loving cup or similar item, but I can re-read it and know that is not necessarily so.

Fox - interesting theory. I have talked briefly with Andy Shaw and he tells me there are people out there who seek out and collect antique trophies... with no particular regard to the event. They just want the artefact for its own aesthetic (I suppose).

I guess if you find yourself in an antiques store and see some trophies, pause and read the description. WHo knows what you will find (look at what is sold on ebay).

Aldo - funny thing about the Connecticut trophy, while I know very little about it, I know that between the late 1940s and early 1950s the Gulf Coast and North Texas divisions each won it at least twice. Who knows, if it disappeared in the 1950s, it may still be somewhere in Texas.

Clarence - no aspirsions intended. I am often reminded of a quote from the old Omni magazine in the 1980s. I can't do it justice, but it went something like this, "Once you have spoken to more than one witness to the same automobile accident, you begin to worry about history." As we so often hear, "The truth is somewhere in the middle."

[nemo]

I know I'll be sorry, but why would the CONNECTICUT trophy be in TEXAS?

[kd5mdk]

It was awarded to the Division with the most membership growth that year. Presumably the inaugural winner was the Connecticut Division, and then North Texas and Gulf Coast traded it off several times. (When was Gulf Coast formed?)

[Clarence O McCraw TTF]

Katyblades, like I said, Gary took a picture of us fencing and drew the picture from the photo. How he got me left handed is a mystery to me. Schlager, either they had another Van B. trophy before I started fencing, or Roland had confused the Van B. and the Franks. I only won the Franks once because Bob Shelby was like a mad dog and almost impossible to beat at that tourney. That was his tourney. Good to hear that Andy Shaw is still around. Is he still in Shreveport? I talked to him 2 or 3 years ago and not since. If the trophy is ever found, I would still like to have a replica of it made to keep on my mantle permanently. All that is there now is my last saber, which I haven't touched in 14 years since I became a Ronin. I've been looking at it a lot lately and this is not helping. Augie, yes, that was the year that all the saber finalist got a bye to the second round of foil and yes again, I hammed it up on receiving the trophy. I had gotten my butt kicked so many years before as I was coming up by Roland, Brian, Martin Johnson, Chris Trammel; it was my inspiration to get better, fast. You yourself know that once you are on that path, nothing will stand in your way. I wonder how long it would take me to get back up to speed at 53? I'm looking at that saber again!!!

[kd5mdk]

There's a Vet 50 Men's Sabre age category just waiting for you. However, the competition can be a little stiff. The first Veteran NAC of next year will be in Richmond VA, Dec 8-10, and the second Atlanda, GA March 9-12. You can fence in both the 50-59 and 40+ events in those (and probably Div II/III at Atlanta if you haven't earned a B by then.
Plus whatever local tournaments you can find. Ray Sexton is doing a great job of keeping up with everyone, and he's in his early 60s.

[schlager7]

Clarence said:

I wonder how long it would take me to get back up to speed at 53? I'm looking at that saber again!!!

...and it's calling to you...

[Prudence]

haha.. well that maybe so.. but the only thing calling me right now is my pillow! Thanks for the message John.. I'll be sure to try it. ;D

[katyblades]

Clarence,

No one else on this board remembers you. Akhi Spencer-el who was the top junior in the world in 1999 and on the 2000 Olympic team fenced in my club last spring, and he fenced from the Peter Westbrook foundation. You would have surprised him with your skills. I have never seen the lean/back with your non-sword hand on the ground parry riposte you and Martin Frey used to do for fun.

Actually, with the electronic timings and scoring you would be very surprised with your results. The only thing is they took away fleches and cross-overs forward, so now the advances are the most important. There was not any one I ever fenced that was faster and that included Marx. Your beat-cut to the hand with a parry riposte would be so fast that it would be one light.

Augie

[Prudence]

One light.. heck of a lot easier to judge.. wow I can't imagine sabre without all the technology we have today.

[schlager7]

I still have not turned up a photo of the Van Buskirk Cup to get an idea what it looked like, but I have a poor image now in reference to this :

admin said:

I got this the other day from Bill Towry:

Another lost trophy is the Connecticut Trophy. It was given by AFLA-USFA at the same time for the Division with the largest increase in membership for the previous year. North Texas won it two years in a row. While we had it we bought as new silver band for names of the future winners. I still have a photo of it some where, but it would take many hours of searching to find just the photo. We have contacted USFA and several individuals, but the trophy has been forgotten.

Good luck in your search

Bill T

I have since found a really dark, poor quality pdf file made from a microfilm shot of an old newspaper that I had to convert to a jpeg to post here (sigh!), of the Connecticut Trophy:



The guy on the left is Harold Van Buskirk. This is from the March 22, 1949 issue of the Galveston Daily News.

[Gary Watashe]

Hey familiar names from the long past... Would like to hear from ya'll. I remember the buskirk at rolands apt at some point but am lucky to remember anything from those days. Hey Clarence! Hey Augie! I miss you all. My email is [e-mail] and I have a website at watashe.100megsfree5.com. Yours truly, Gary Watashe. Oh yeah, Clarence is left handed in the t-shirt because he was facing the other way in the photo I took, so I reversed him in the artwork... artistic license

[katyblades]

Gary,

It is great to hear from you. I will pull up your sight. My website is www.katyblades.com, and email is [e-mail].

You remember running most of those tournaments in those days, and the Van Buskirk and other activities. I tried to tell people why Clarence was left-handed, but no one believed me.

Have a great one, and come out and fence with us sometime. They have Vet events for over 40, 50 and 60, but if I remember you shoud be in the middle group we call Junior Vets, (50 - 60).

Augie

[schlager7]

It is not "quite" the actual Van Buskirk Cup, but I may soon have a good line on what it looked like.

In addition to the travelling trophy, there was a smaller "keeper."

I was recently talking with a past winner of the Van Buskirk Cup. He stated that his keeper was an identical, save smaller, copy of the primary trophy, with the exception that the larger trophy had a base. With luck, perhaps I can acquire a jpeg of the smaller trophy soon.

[kd5mdk]

I don't suppose the USFA would be interested in reviving the Connecticut Tropy.

[schlager7]

kd5mdk said:

I don't suppose the USFA would be interested in reviving the Connecticut Tropy.

I think it would be a pretty nifty idea. It was always a way to really spotlight the division or divisions (some years it was shared) making the most improvement/showing the most growth, etc.

Lets a division know the USFA is noticing them in a positive way.

[theluz]

Apr 17, 2006 21:47:11 GMT -6 schlager7 said:

I was more impressed with a foil finalist with one are named Al Snyder that finished 6th, (out of 50+), fencing in his 50th year of fencing. He started fencing in his early 20s or late teens at Stanford recruited from tennis.

Al was a former National foil champion. Nice guy, too.

[sclark]

After Clarence won it, I believe that it went to Chris Trammel of NO FC for the next couple of years, then Paul Anderson, then me, and then Howard Williams. You might track down Chris. The last I heard he was
still around New Orleans.

Also, somewhere in those years, at DFC we had an Iranian fencer that had come to the US when they overthrew the Shah. His name was Hussein Haddadi, and he was clearly the best in the SW section. I know that he won the sabre one of those years- I think that he was champion instead of Paul. 20 years ago he was in Breckenridge- last I heard of him.

[schlager7]

Thanks, sclark, good idea. I've corresponded with Chris a couple of times on other parts of our history.

[Carol]

Who wouldn't?